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Message: <blockquote data-quote="innerdude" data-source="post: 5784536" data-attributes="member: 85870">That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that as a genre, RPGs provide a much more unique venue for Simulationist and Narrativist explorations than they do for Gamism. I don't have a problem with Gamists wanting to have fun in their RPGs. I'm more than willing to admit that I derive satisfaction from well-designed character builds, and then seeing the benefits of those designs come to fruition in play. However--that sense of "Gamist" satisfaction should be subsumed within the broader goals of Narrativism and Simulationism in RPGs. I said it earlier--even if there's enjoyable Gamism to be had in an RPG, an RPG is an RPG (and not something else) precisely because it inherently contains "spaces" or "venues" within its accepted play structure and social contract that aren't Gamist.I don't think most people sit down to play a pen-and-paper RPG simply because they want the challenge of creating the "awesomest character ever," and then "running around and pwning stuff with it." If that's all a player is really after, I'd say to them, "Cool, sounds like a lot of fun!" (and I'd be telling the truth when I said it--in the right context, it's an immense amount of fun). But I'd follow it up by saying, "Why don't you take up that challenge in WoW, or SW:TOR, or Skyrim, or Magic: The Gathering, or any of dozens of other venues that really let you get to the 'meat' of that desire? If that's really all you want, an RPG is kind of roundabout way of getting there." Mechanically, Diablo the CRPG and tabletop D&D have many, many similarities. But you're going to have an awfully hard time having the kind of "Eureka Moments" HowandWhy99 describes in his earlier post in Diablo. Why? Because at its core, Diablo is Gamist--it's entire function is to create ever-increasing challenges based on the mathematic formulas that determine the player character's capabilities against the "world" that Diablo creates. That's certainly a valid way to play a game that doesn't functionally present other options for doing so. Diablo can't create Narrativist or Simulationist challenges. But RPGs do. I'm more than willing to admit that an RPG can "Drift" with Gamist tendencies from Narrativist or Simulationist roots, and that such drift can provide satisfaction for players who like Gamism. But I think RPGs as a genre require more than just Gamism to really work in ways that don't end up being "dysfunctional."  As I stated in my original post, pure Gamism is inherently antithetical to the social contract of RPGs.</blockquote>

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