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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5785106" data-attributes="member: 42582">I tend to think this is right - and Vincent Baker pushes this line strongly - but it is certainly controversial on these boards.But I think this is wrong. Both gamist and narrativist play involve exploration of a shared imaginary space - ie "pretending together" - but unlike simulationist play, exploration is not the main thing. It's a preliminary to something else.Now you describe that something else as secondary, but what is your basis for that? For example, suppose the rules of the game mean that, (i) if I have narrated that some fictional character is dead, then I also get to narrate that I am looting my body. And suppose the rules of the game also permit me (ii) to narrate that some fictinal character is dead, as a consequence of narrating that I have struck them with a honking big weapon, and (iii) to narrate the spending of my loot so as to increse my ability to buy honking big weapons. We don't need to add very much to (i), (ii) and (iii) to get the basics of Tunnels & Trolls play, or some versions of classic D&D play. I think the incipient gamism is obvious - players can "win" by narrating successful attacks, looting corposes, buying bigger weapons, rinse and repeat. And there is nothing in that gamism that is at odds with playing "let's pretend". It's just pretending to a purpose.My own view on what distinguishes this gamist RPGing from a wargame or a boardgame is that fictional positioning is central. For example, to be allowed to get to stage (ii) - narrating a strike with my honking big weapon - I am going to first have to establish in the shared imaginary space, that I am nearby my intended target. To do this, I'm going to have to first establish, in the SIS, how I get there. And so on. In classic D&D or T&T play, this is where the dungeon exploration comes in - and fictional positioning is central to it.Conversely, it is the failure of 4e to adequately articulate how fictional positioning matters in that game's action resolution (although in my view it does matter in all sorts of ways) that leads to 4e being described by many as a mere boardgame or skirmish game.</blockquote>

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