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"Gamism," The Forge, and the Elephant in the Room
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<blockquote data-quote="innerdude" data-source="post: 5795764" data-attributes="member: 85870"><p>That's an interesting point, though I think to some degree, the "kicking orc butt" could be a part of all of them. </p><p></p><p>I'd put it more this way: </p><p></p><p>1. Gamism - "Let's all play a game together, and do so to test our wits and abilities within the structure of the game's rules, and gain satisfaction by using our wit and knowledge to overcome structural challenges." Unlike the other two, the "pretending" part here is totally optional from the "game" part. If that challenge ends up as "pretending to be an alter-ego and kicking orc butt," so be it. The "pretending" part in Gamism is largely irrelevant, unless you're looking at some level to incorporate aspects from one of the other two "legs." (As a side note, any time you hear a complaint against GM fiat, it's generally coming from a gamist perspective--"You're 'unfairly' or 'arbitrarily' changing the challenge, and thus lessening my satisfaction!")</p><p></p><p>2. Simulationism - "Let's all pretend together and explore some aspect of a shared "world" and the characters that inhabit it." This may or may not even involve a structured set of "game" rules at all, beyond accepting that one person or persons is the "arbiter" of what happens and what doesn't--Rule 0. This "simulation" could also easily incorporate kicking orc butt--exploring the social ecology of orcs, the effects of lawless and reckless chaos on society, the nature of "tribalism," and more. </p><p></p><p>3. Narrativism - "Let's all pretend together, and tell a meaningful story that resonates, reflects, or assimilates aspects of human values and emotions." Once again, this may or may not involve any "game" rules other than Rule 0 (and could also easily incorporate kicking orc butt, especially if it was approached from the aspect of, "What makes humans different from orcs? What emotional responses and controls do we have that they lack, and why is that important?"). </p><p></p><p>Note the difference--Only #1 <em>absolutely requires</em> there to be a formal, structured set of rules to be "gamed" for its premise to work at all. In a purely Gamist scenario, a player is only "pretending" to be an elf with magic or a dwarf with an axe because that's how the challenge is presented, and that's how the rules define the situation of the challenge. It has nothing to do with caring about any sense of simulation or narrative.</p><p></p><p>Obviously, RPGs started from war games, and I get the fact that anywhere there's rules to be gamed, someone's going to "game" them (the phrase "Don't hate the playa, hate the game" is eminently applicable here). </p><p></p><p>But the reason RPGs have continued to this day and evolved is because at some point, Gygax and Arneson had a "Whoah!" moment (think Keanu Reeves) when they discovered that there was something <em>else</em>, some other "kind" of game hiding underneath their miniatures battles in Chainmail. </p><p></p><p>That's the game I want to play. Not a highly refined, glorified Chainmail.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="innerdude, post: 5795764, member: 85870"] That's an interesting point, though I think to some degree, the "kicking orc butt" could be a part of all of them. I'd put it more this way: 1. Gamism - "Let's all play a game together, and do so to test our wits and abilities within the structure of the game's rules, and gain satisfaction by using our wit and knowledge to overcome structural challenges." Unlike the other two, the "pretending" part here is totally optional from the "game" part. If that challenge ends up as "pretending to be an alter-ego and kicking orc butt," so be it. The "pretending" part in Gamism is largely irrelevant, unless you're looking at some level to incorporate aspects from one of the other two "legs." (As a side note, any time you hear a complaint against GM fiat, it's generally coming from a gamist perspective--"You're 'unfairly' or 'arbitrarily' changing the challenge, and thus lessening my satisfaction!") 2. Simulationism - "Let's all pretend together and explore some aspect of a shared "world" and the characters that inhabit it." This may or may not even involve a structured set of "game" rules at all, beyond accepting that one person or persons is the "arbiter" of what happens and what doesn't--Rule 0. This "simulation" could also easily incorporate kicking orc butt--exploring the social ecology of orcs, the effects of lawless and reckless chaos on society, the nature of "tribalism," and more. 3. Narrativism - "Let's all pretend together, and tell a meaningful story that resonates, reflects, or assimilates aspects of human values and emotions." Once again, this may or may not involve any "game" rules other than Rule 0 (and could also easily incorporate kicking orc butt, especially if it was approached from the aspect of, "What makes humans different from orcs? What emotional responses and controls do we have that they lack, and why is that important?"). Note the difference--Only #1 [I]absolutely requires[/I] there to be a formal, structured set of rules to be "gamed" for its premise to work at all. In a purely Gamist scenario, a player is only "pretending" to be an elf with magic or a dwarf with an axe because that's how the challenge is presented, and that's how the rules define the situation of the challenge. It has nothing to do with caring about any sense of simulation or narrative. Obviously, RPGs started from war games, and I get the fact that anywhere there's rules to be gamed, someone's going to "game" them (the phrase "Don't hate the playa, hate the game" is eminently applicable here). But the reason RPGs have continued to this day and evolved is because at some point, Gygax and Arneson had a "Whoah!" moment (think Keanu Reeves) when they discovered that there was something [I]else[/I], some other "kind" of game hiding underneath their miniatures battles in Chainmail. That's the game I want to play. Not a highly refined, glorified Chainmail. [/QUOTE]
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