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<blockquote data-quote="JonWake" data-source="post: 5813857" data-attributes="member: 95255"><p>I actually agree. What makes D&D unique and *the* RPG isn't just its status as the *first* rpg, it's that it is sort of astoundingly flexible. But while I think Edwards overstates 'system incoherency' it is still a thing that happens. It just doesn't bother most people.</p><p></p><p>But at the same time, there are people who just play D&D and have no experience with other game systems. Or they have experience with game systems that are very heavily influence by D&D. D&D has always had a certain 'suck it up, soldier' bent to it-- it encourages players to approach the game from a competitive stance. Beat the bad guys, get the gold, save the kingdom. You get XP for killing baddies, your characters are built to have a tactical niche, and back in the old days, you were expected to maximize every environmental advantage you could get. It is a dyed in the wool 'Gamist' game. </p><p></p><p>But nothing in GNS theory says that you <strong>HAVE </strong>to play D&D like that. You'll be rewarded if you do, but if the DM wants to run a spooky Ravenloft game where you're heroes overwhelmed by evil and you can only hope for small victories before an ignominious death, he totally can. Now, he might butt heads with some of the mechanics (HP increases, increasing power curves and the like) but nothing prevents him giving XP for story, using Fear and Madness Saves and kludging together a system that encourages his story.</p><p></p><p>Every game can be played in every way. It's not a straight-jacket. It's just a tendency. Now, what I mean by being mutually exclusive is this: when the player meets the mechanic and dice are being rolled or choices are being made, only one approach can be used at a time. If you are looking at a battle with Strahd as an opportunity to show the DM what your character is made of and beat the bad guy, but the DM is using it to illustrate the hopelessness of your situation, <em>gameplay will break down</em>. Every single player has seen it happen. All GNS does is predict where these breakdown points might occur.</p><p></p><p>Likewise, if a player thinks that they are a hard bitten adventurer who lives fast and dies young in an uncaring world filled with independent actors and a thousand year old history, she's probably going to bristle when her 4e game starts tripping dragons and her DM tries to tell her 'its all an abstraction'. She doesn't want an abstraction, she wants to live in a character's skin.</p><p></p><p>When that moment happens, only one of those viewpoints can determine the course of events. Someone will have to compromise. And that's good, that's what RPGs are based on. A mature game table will deal with these breakdowns as they happen. </p><p></p><p>As D&D has moved from 3e to 4e, the game styles it supports have gotten more and more narrow. A general system can support nearly anything.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JonWake, post: 5813857, member: 95255"] I actually agree. What makes D&D unique and *the* RPG isn't just its status as the *first* rpg, it's that it is sort of astoundingly flexible. But while I think Edwards overstates 'system incoherency' it is still a thing that happens. It just doesn't bother most people. But at the same time, there are people who just play D&D and have no experience with other game systems. Or they have experience with game systems that are very heavily influence by D&D. D&D has always had a certain 'suck it up, soldier' bent to it-- it encourages players to approach the game from a competitive stance. Beat the bad guys, get the gold, save the kingdom. You get XP for killing baddies, your characters are built to have a tactical niche, and back in the old days, you were expected to maximize every environmental advantage you could get. It is a dyed in the wool 'Gamist' game. But nothing in GNS theory says that you [B]HAVE [/B]to play D&D like that. You'll be rewarded if you do, but if the DM wants to run a spooky Ravenloft game where you're heroes overwhelmed by evil and you can only hope for small victories before an ignominious death, he totally can. Now, he might butt heads with some of the mechanics (HP increases, increasing power curves and the like) but nothing prevents him giving XP for story, using Fear and Madness Saves and kludging together a system that encourages his story. Every game can be played in every way. It's not a straight-jacket. It's just a tendency. Now, what I mean by being mutually exclusive is this: when the player meets the mechanic and dice are being rolled or choices are being made, only one approach can be used at a time. If you are looking at a battle with Strahd as an opportunity to show the DM what your character is made of and beat the bad guy, but the DM is using it to illustrate the hopelessness of your situation, [I]gameplay will break down[/I]. Every single player has seen it happen. All GNS does is predict where these breakdown points might occur. Likewise, if a player thinks that they are a hard bitten adventurer who lives fast and dies young in an uncaring world filled with independent actors and a thousand year old history, she's probably going to bristle when her 4e game starts tripping dragons and her DM tries to tell her 'its all an abstraction'. She doesn't want an abstraction, she wants to live in a character's skin. When that moment happens, only one of those viewpoints can determine the course of events. Someone will have to compromise. And that's good, that's what RPGs are based on. A mature game table will deal with these breakdowns as they happen. As D&D has moved from 3e to 4e, the game styles it supports have gotten more and more narrow. A general system can support nearly anything. [/QUOTE]
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