Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5670835" data-attributes="member: 61155">Oh, come on. I've numerous times mentioned playing alongside specific players who have had issues running with the standard AEDU format and who find Essentials classes ideal for their style of play. Are you really so opposed to Essentials that you need to insist that I am either (a) a liar, or (b) enjoy crippling my friends so my characters can be awesome? The point is that those who prefer this style don't feel overshadowed when playing Essentials characters, and don't feel bored by having simple but effective characters. They feel overshadowed when playing a PHB character ineffectively (since they never bother using encounter powers) and are bored when, before they can take their turn, the other players stop them from rolling and badger them into choosing between the half-dozen powers they have available.  Is this representative of every player? Of course not. Nor is it even most players I know. I'd say that of players I know casually - from Living Forgotten Realms, Encounters, etc - perhaps 2 (out of the nine or ten I would occasionally play with) reaped vast benefits from the approach taken by Essentials. Of my own gaming group, out of the 6 or 7 folks we regularly game with, Essentials is perfect for 1 and useful for another.  This doesn't mean that these players should never touch AEDU classes (nor does it mean that I and others don't occasionally play Essentials classes.)  But they do exist - players who prefer the approach taken by Essentials. You find the Slayer mindlessly boring and ineffective. That's fair. You even fear the impact it might have on player's mindset about martial classes, and are concerned about what it means for the direction of the game as a whole. Also fine to worry about, even if we don't know how valid such concerns will be until farther down the road.  But insisting that everyone else must have the same viewpoint as you - that players who might find these fun and interesting and effective to play don't actually exist, and that those who are disagreeing with you in these threads are just making stuff up... seriously, not cool.   Again, not sure where you are getting the claims that Essentials characters are ineffective or do limited damage. The entire point is that they are simple but effective. 4E as a whole is pretty good about making it hard to build a truly ineffective character... but Essentials makes it even harder. You have a default level of 'pretty good', and that is one of its big advantages.  As for the claims that Essentials doesn't really prepare characters for the real game or real characters... I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. The character builds are different, yes. But that gives a great opportunity to not deal with that complexity while learning everything else about the game - the mechanics of skills, combats, items, etc, basic tricks and strategies, etc. And once one is ready for more options in terms of character building - for those who want it - I don't see it as a huge ordeal to make the change.   Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Look, even with the best player in the world at the table, some folks find it disruptive or frustrating to constantly have that player giving them advice and telling them what they are doing wrong. Even if phrased as politely as possible... it feels like someone else is playing your character. And some folks would much rather have a character they can play effectively entirely on their own merits, rather than 'be happy' with a character built and run by other players.   Your entire argument is founded on the belief that Essentials characters are unbalanced, are overshadowed or languish compared to normal characters. I don't think anyone on the opposite side of the argument actually believes that is the case. They believe these are balanced classes. And I think we've given our reasons why every time you've brought up the point.  For myself, I can understand your concerns, since I had the same worries when I heard about Essentials. The actual product alleviated those concerns and has proven - both in my experience and in analyzing the options - balanced with existing class. Honestly, to a far greater extent than we saw with PHB3 classes and the poor execution of Psionics - probably even to a greater extent than the original PHB classes were balanced with each other.  Again, 4E as a whole is reasonably well balanced. We've seen some creep over the course of the edition, some of which was inevitable, some of which was not. And Essentials did ramp up even farther the power of feats, which is my biggest complaint about it. But as a whole, the classes themselves show a greater level of balance than what we saw before, in my opinion.  And players who previously had to either rely on others to help build and play their character, or who ended up with something that either had trouble contributing or was frustrating to play... now have options that let them be effective and not be overshadowed, without dealing with those complexities or relying on constant advice from everyone else. That, in my mind, is a good thing.</blockquote>

Verification