Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
General consensus on expertise feats
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5089540" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>It's really dependent on the group, including the DM.</p><p></p><p>There are several factors involved:</p><p></p><p>1) PC design.</p><p></p><p>My wife was playing a Ranger and even with Twin Strike, she wasn't hitting a lot. So, I designed a sword and shield fighter for her that does a lot of close burst attacks. She has the highest to hit in the party, she has the highest AC in the party, and on many rounds she swings multiple times (sweeping blow / come and get it, etc.).</p><p></p><p>Suddenly, she loves her PC. She hits a lot because of 2 to 4 attacks many rounds combined with the best to hit.</p><p></p><p>She averages less damage per attack than the party Ranger (obviously) or even the party Sword Mage, but she's having a great time because she hits a lot.</p><p></p><p>Such a PC will become problematic at Epic level with the expertise feats (especially level 21 as per your link, the strongest relative level in the game system) because she is optimized for "to hit".</p><p></p><p>A PC like our Cleric who concentrates mostly on healing, has few area effect powers (hence, she typically gets one to hit per round) and the lowest AC in the party is a lot less of an issue at Epic with the expertise feats. She hardly ever hits and if she gets surrounded, has to waste time trying to avoid foes as much as she tries to attack them.</p><p></p><p>So, it really depends on individual PCs.</p><p></p><p>2) Which splat books are allowed.</p><p></p><p>When the PHP first came out, it was a lot harder to have a highly optimized PC and even harder to have a highly optimized group. Every time a splat book comes out, it becomes easier and easier to find feats and powers and classes and combinations that are just a tad bit stronger than previous books allowed. PHB II, for example, has 12 heroic feats alone that add a bonus to hit in one way or another (including expertise feats). Granted, many of them are extremely conditional, but it can and does add up. Combined with the synergies that new and different feats, powers, paragon path, racial, and epic destiny abilities bring to the table, it all adds up. This is generally not as true for monsters. Monsters are not getting that much stronger. The "math" was worse when there were fewer splat books. Something as simple as getting a reroll once per encounter on an attack roll adds an average of +3 to that attack roll.</p><p></p><p>3) PC familiarity vs. DM familiarity.</p><p></p><p>The players tend to play the same PCs day in and day out. Nearly every encounter can teach them a little bit more about each other and what works and what doesn't work.</p><p></p><p>The DM doesn't have this advantage. Nearly every set of monsters he brings into an encounter tend to be different with different strengths and weaknesses. As a general rule, I often go "Doh! I should have had the monsters arranged this way, or I should have done this instead of that". The learning curve for the DM is a lot steeper because his variables are changing every single encounter. There is also the issue of memory. I sometimes forget that a certain monster has a certain ability until it is too late precisely because this is the first time I am running that monster. "Doh! I should have used that power last round.". The players have this issue less since they eventually learn their PCs inside and out.</p><p></p><p>So I think there is a major difference between playing an epic encounter with PCs that the players are not as familiar with than with ones they are totally familiar with. The players familiar with their PCs will squeeze ever ounce of to hit bonuses out of their PCs.</p><p></p><p>The DM also has the issue of too much vs. too little. The players will often design their PCs to get a lot of "too much". If the DM does that, he could be begging for a TPK. For example, if the DM pulls in multiple monsters that stun, even if they are within the DMG guidelines for an encounter, a few bad dice rolls could spell trouble for the PCs. The players don't have this issue. The tougher they make their PCs, the easier it is for them to survive.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So getting back to the expertise issue, it is dependent on the group. Super optimized groups where many splat books (or Dragon magazine) options are allowed could easily get away with not having access to the Expertise feats.</p><p></p><p>Less optimized groups, groups that have access to less material, and/or groups where the DM is more on top of his game could use the Expertise feats and still be behind the 8 ball, even at Epic level.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 5089540, member: 2011"] It's really dependent on the group, including the DM. There are several factors involved: 1) PC design. My wife was playing a Ranger and even with Twin Strike, she wasn't hitting a lot. So, I designed a sword and shield fighter for her that does a lot of close burst attacks. She has the highest to hit in the party, she has the highest AC in the party, and on many rounds she swings multiple times (sweeping blow / come and get it, etc.). Suddenly, she loves her PC. She hits a lot because of 2 to 4 attacks many rounds combined with the best to hit. She averages less damage per attack than the party Ranger (obviously) or even the party Sword Mage, but she's having a great time because she hits a lot. Such a PC will become problematic at Epic level with the expertise feats (especially level 21 as per your link, the strongest relative level in the game system) because she is optimized for "to hit". A PC like our Cleric who concentrates mostly on healing, has few area effect powers (hence, she typically gets one to hit per round) and the lowest AC in the party is a lot less of an issue at Epic with the expertise feats. She hardly ever hits and if she gets surrounded, has to waste time trying to avoid foes as much as she tries to attack them. So, it really depends on individual PCs. 2) Which splat books are allowed. When the PHP first came out, it was a lot harder to have a highly optimized PC and even harder to have a highly optimized group. Every time a splat book comes out, it becomes easier and easier to find feats and powers and classes and combinations that are just a tad bit stronger than previous books allowed. PHB II, for example, has 12 heroic feats alone that add a bonus to hit in one way or another (including expertise feats). Granted, many of them are extremely conditional, but it can and does add up. Combined with the synergies that new and different feats, powers, paragon path, racial, and epic destiny abilities bring to the table, it all adds up. This is generally not as true for monsters. Monsters are not getting that much stronger. The "math" was worse when there were fewer splat books. Something as simple as getting a reroll once per encounter on an attack roll adds an average of +3 to that attack roll. 3) PC familiarity vs. DM familiarity. The players tend to play the same PCs day in and day out. Nearly every encounter can teach them a little bit more about each other and what works and what doesn't work. The DM doesn't have this advantage. Nearly every set of monsters he brings into an encounter tend to be different with different strengths and weaknesses. As a general rule, I often go "Doh! I should have had the monsters arranged this way, or I should have done this instead of that". The learning curve for the DM is a lot steeper because his variables are changing every single encounter. There is also the issue of memory. I sometimes forget that a certain monster has a certain ability until it is too late precisely because this is the first time I am running that monster. "Doh! I should have used that power last round.". The players have this issue less since they eventually learn their PCs inside and out. So I think there is a major difference between playing an epic encounter with PCs that the players are not as familiar with than with ones they are totally familiar with. The players familiar with their PCs will squeeze ever ounce of to hit bonuses out of their PCs. The DM also has the issue of too much vs. too little. The players will often design their PCs to get a lot of "too much". If the DM does that, he could be begging for a TPK. For example, if the DM pulls in multiple monsters that stun, even if they are within the DMG guidelines for an encounter, a few bad dice rolls could spell trouble for the PCs. The players don't have this issue. The tougher they make their PCs, the easier it is for them to survive. So getting back to the expertise issue, it is dependent on the group. Super optimized groups where many splat books (or Dragon magazine) options are allowed could easily get away with not having access to the Expertise feats. Less optimized groups, groups that have access to less material, and/or groups where the DM is more on top of his game could use the Expertise feats and still be behind the 8 ball, even at Epic level. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
General consensus on expertise feats
Top