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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Victim" data-source="post: 3570745" data-attributes="member: 78">Yeah, I'm not sure what the fail rate should be either.  It's especially awkward since PCs will be both rolling saves and dishing out save effects.  While most PCs probably want a high success rate on saves to avoid losing turns (or just dieing), a high success rate also means that casters are likely to waste their turns on failed spells - or switch to no save spells like say Web, Ray of Enfeeblment, and Enervation which bypass saves (and can still screw people over).  Which just moves the problem sideways as other defenses come into play without solving the issue of relative chance of success versus the reward for it.Same thing for damage, both independently and as it relates to saves (high average damage that reliably disables foes makes save based eliminations less attractive).</blockquote>