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<blockquote data-quote="TheCosmicKid" data-source="post: 6868727" data-attributes="member: 6683613">To pigeonhole this discussion this way, you have to ignore the times I've pointed out how Int 5 geniuses inhibit dramatic play as well.&nbsp; Be careful about jumping to conclusions, especially when the jump drops your thought into a well-worn groove.&nbsp; Hard to get out once you're in.Such as...?The operative feature of godmodding is not a particular stance of play (although it probably does lend itself more to director stance), but rather narrating your character's actions to cast them unfailingly in the best light in a way that is obnoxious to the other players.&nbsp; In other words, it's playing a Mary Sue.There is also a sub-definition of the term that focuses on narrating the actions of other characters illicitly.&nbsp; We haven't really talked about that here, but I've seen it lurking in some of what you and Elfcrusher have said, and it may come up in the future.I may have missed it, but I didn't see anywhere you addressed the fact that per the zone of truth spell, the caster &quot;know<s> whether each creature succeeds or fails on its saving throw.&quot;</s><s></s><s>Yet another response to this objection that amounts solely to denigrating the players as munchkins.&nbsp; Do you not see any problem with that?&nbsp; It's hardly munchkinism to think, &quot;X canonically works.&nbsp; Why don't we keep doing X?&quot;&nbsp; If X canonically works, and the characters don't do X when it would be useful for them to do so, that's not players nobly refraining from nasty evil operational maximization -- that's a plot hole.&nbsp; Do you get annoyed when heroes in books and movies &quot;forget&quot; about some ability they have at an opportune moment?&nbsp; Or, even if you don't get annoyed, do you feel the need to look down your nose at other members of the audience who do?&nbsp; Because they're thinking the story through and want it to be logically consistent?&nbsp; Come on, man.</s><s></s><s>Do you guys just want to keep patting yourselves on the back?&nbsp; Should I leave you alone?</s></blockquote>

[QUOTE="TheCosmicKid, post: 6868727, member: 6683613"] To pigeonhole this discussion this way, you have to ignore the times I've pointed out how Int 5 geniuses inhibit dramatic play as well. Be careful about jumping to conclusions, especially when the jump drops your thought into a well-worn groove. Hard to get out once you're in. Such as...? The operative feature of godmodding is not a particular stance of play (although it probably does lend itself more to director stance), but rather narrating your character's actions to cast them unfailingly in the best light in a way that is obnoxious to the other players. In other words, it's playing a Mary Sue. There is also a sub-definition of the term that focuses on narrating [I]the actions of other characters[/I] illicitly. We haven't really talked about that here, but I've seen it lurking in some of what you and Elfcrusher have said, and it may come up in the future. I may have missed it, but I didn't see anywhere you addressed the fact that per the [I]zone of truth[/I] spell, the caster "know[s] whether each creature succeeds or fails on its saving throw." Yet another response to this objection that amounts solely to denigrating the players as munchkins. Do you not see any problem with that? It's hardly munchkinism to think, "X canonically works. Why don't we keep doing X?" If X canonically works, and the characters don't do X when it would be useful for them to do so, that's not players nobly refraining from nasty evil operational maximization -- [I]that's a plot hole[/I]. Do you get annoyed when heroes in books and movies "forget" about some ability they have at an opportune moment? Or, even if you don't get annoyed, do you feel the need to look down your nose at other members of the audience who do? Because they're thinking the story through and want it to be logically consistent? Come on, man. Do you guys just want to keep patting yourselves on the back? Should I leave you alone?[/s] [/QUOTE]

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