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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 6871044" data-attributes="member: 23751">The player only rolls the d20.&nbsp; The save is for the PC only, not the player.&nbsp; Correct.&nbsp; The character makes or fails the save, not the player.&nbsp; The player only rolls the die to determine if the PC makes or fails it.The patron has no mechanical power to protect the PC and maintain the ongoing deceit.&nbsp; A failed save forces the PC to tell the truth unless there is a house rule going on to alter that mechanic.What you two are arguing is that a mechanical change that doesn't change the outcome is not a house rule.&nbsp; This is false.&nbsp; You don't get to turn a fireball into cold damage just because the creature killed is dead and no rules involving cold or fire are in play.&nbsp; Not without a house rule anyway.Which is fine.&nbsp; House rule the game to your heart's content.&nbsp; Just don't expect us to believe that it's not a house rule.&nbsp; RAW simply does not back you up.The best [MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION] has been able to argue is that RAW doesn't specifically prevent his actions, which is arguably untrue.&nbsp; However, for the sake of argument, I'll accept that for this post.&nbsp; Assuming RAW doesn't prevent it, it's still a house rule to enact.&nbsp; Anything not explicitly spelled out by RAW is not RAW.&nbsp; 99.9999999999% of everything in the multiverse is not prevented by RAW.&nbsp; RAW doesn't forbid a fireball from reading the minds of every NPC within 20 miles and giving it to the PC.&nbsp; If Elfcrusher's argument is true, then I can narrate a fireball as doing that and the resulting mechanics are not a house rule because no existing mechanic was changed.&nbsp; All of the fireball's mechanics are intact and work just as the game directs.Probably because it isn't backed up by the rules.&nbsp; In fact, the rules indicate the exact opposite.Agility in 1e/2e had no mechanical effect.&nbsp; Strength does.&nbsp; Even if we were to accept Gygax as being correct, and he was wrong on a lot of things, his example still doesn't apply to Twosix's example.&nbsp; He's not giving an example of agile yet not dexterous.&nbsp; Those are at least two different things.&nbsp; He's giving an example of strong, yet not strong.&nbsp; You can't be both.Because agility, unlike strength, has no mechanical effect.&nbsp; You can't be brawny without being strong.&nbsp; You can be agile without being dexterous.&nbsp; Note that Gygax made no similar example with strength on that page.&nbsp; There's a reason for that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 6871044, member: 23751"] The player only rolls the d20. The save is for the PC only, not the player. Correct. The character makes or fails the save, not the player. The player only rolls the die to determine if the PC makes or fails it. The patron has no mechanical power to protect the PC and maintain the ongoing deceit. A failed save forces the PC to tell the truth unless there is a house rule going on to alter that mechanic. What you two are arguing is that a mechanical change that doesn't change the outcome is not a house rule. This is false. You don't get to turn a fireball into cold damage just because the creature killed is dead and no rules involving cold or fire are in play. Not without a house rule anyway. Which is fine. House rule the game to your heart's content. Just don't expect us to believe that it's not a house rule. RAW simply does not back you up. The best [MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION] has been able to argue is that RAW doesn't specifically prevent his actions, which is arguably untrue. However, for the sake of argument, I'll accept that for this post. Assuming RAW doesn't prevent it, it's still a house rule to enact. Anything not explicitly spelled out by RAW is not RAW. 99.9999999999% of everything in the multiverse is not prevented by RAW. RAW doesn't forbid a fireball from reading the minds of every NPC within 20 miles and giving it to the PC. If Elfcrusher's argument is true, then I can narrate a fireball as doing that and the resulting mechanics are not a house rule because no existing mechanic was changed. All of the fireball's mechanics are intact and work just as the game directs. Probably because it isn't backed up by the rules. In fact, the rules indicate the exact opposite. Agility in 1e/2e had no mechanical effect. Strength does. Even if we were to accept Gygax as being correct, and he was wrong on a lot of things, his example still doesn't apply to Twosix's example. He's not giving an example of agile yet not dexterous. Those are at least two different things. He's giving an example of strong, yet not strong. You can't be both. Because agility, unlike strength, has no mechanical effect. You can't be brawny without being strong. You can be agile without being dexterous. Note that Gygax made no similar example with strength on that page. There's a reason for that. [/QUOTE]

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