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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 6874941" data-attributes="member: 23751">Elfcrusher insists that the patron is not a delusion, that means that the patron is real and is actually giving information to Eloelle.&nbsp; Since the answer is wrong, but the patron didn't tell that to Eloelle, the patron lied to her. If it hadn't lied, then she would have the correct answer and she doesn't have that due to the failed int check.It doesn't break the concept.&nbsp; Eloelle still has a patron that gives her answers, and she is still required to keep them secret.&nbsp; Concepts are not immune to the game mechanics.&nbsp; Otherwise I could just make a character concept that says I can't be hurt by weapons and then they wouldn't be able to.&nbsp;And in the process, she turns a failed save into a successful one by being able to lie to the caster.&nbsp; Those are fine if the mechanics are house ruled in her favor.&nbsp; Without a house rule there is only one way the mechanics allow her not to give the answer she &quot;knows&quot; to the riddle, and that's if she makes a successful save.&nbsp; No.&nbsp; Elfcrusher has been clear.&nbsp; She doesn't believe she knows, because he thinks that implies delusion.&nbsp; She really does know, but what she knows is incorrect.&nbsp; Because she knows, she must answer what she knows to the caster if she fails the save.Wow!&nbsp; Where did you get &quot;telling all the secrets&quot; from &quot;she has to answer one question&quot;?&nbsp; The cast doesn't know what to ask her in order to get all of her secrets, and no concept is immune from being tested by the game's mechanics.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 6874941, member: 23751"] Elfcrusher insists that the patron is not a delusion, that means that the patron is real and is actually giving information to Eloelle. Since the answer is wrong, but the patron didn't tell that to Eloelle, the patron lied to her. If it hadn't lied, then she would have the correct answer and she doesn't have that due to the failed int check. It doesn't break the concept. Eloelle still has a patron that gives her answers, and she is still required to keep them secret. Concepts are not immune to the game mechanics. Otherwise I could just make a character concept that says I can't be hurt by weapons and then they wouldn't be able to. And in the process, she turns a failed save into a successful one by being able to lie to the caster. Those are fine if the mechanics are house ruled in her favor. Without a house rule there is only one way the mechanics allow her not to give the answer she "knows" to the riddle, and that's if she makes a successful save. No. Elfcrusher has been clear. She doesn't believe she knows, because he thinks that implies delusion. She really does know, but what she knows is incorrect. Because she knows, she must answer what she knows to the caster if she fails the save. Wow! Where did you get "telling all the secrets" from "she has to answer one question"? The cast doesn't know what to ask her in order to get all of her secrets, and no concept is immune from being tested by the game's mechanics. [/QUOTE]

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