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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 2290567" data-attributes="member: 19675">Ok...here goes nothin'!Another thought on the discussion of how defining the genres by their trappings invalidates them as literature:Its an argument that cuts both ways.  Assume that a particular sci-fi or fantasy novel can be considered to be a fully realized representative of another genre, distinguished only by its setting.  Assume also that you can find similar sci-fi or fantasy novels invading most other genres.  You assert that this invalidates sci-fi and fantasy as distinct genres because they aren't doing something unique.  However, by the mere existence of a novel that is both fully sci-fi and fully a romance (for example), then the genre of ROMANCE as well is no longer doing something unique.  To expand the argument- any prose that successfully bridges 2 or more genres destroys each genre's uniqueness by its very existence by cross germination of features.But we know that cannot be the case.  There are innumerable works that cross genres of all kinds, yet we still feel that those genres are extant.  Genres are not so neatly defined as species.Re: Turtledoves's Darkness series:You've got dragons and necromancy, what more do you want?How about the fact that in at least one region of the world, the Gods of a particular nation push back the necromantic spells powered by the slaughter of innocent Kaunians (the race analogous to Jews) upon its wielders, slaying them: Direct divine intervention in the form of immediate retribution.  That do anything for you?  The weapon that otherwise works has the rules of the game voided on it.  How about later magics that depend on "bargains with the powers below?" Well, I can honestly say that I too, know of a SF/F story in which an artist grows from novice to master.  There are analogous plotlines, howeverIf you consider a mage to be fantasy's equivalent to an artist, there are MANY works that follow that theme.  Sci-Fi channel aired a piece of crap tracing Merlin from a youth to master of magic.  A similar path is trod in Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea books-NOT the Sci-Fi channel's butchery of it (youngster eventually becomes Archmage of the world).  Piers Anthony's early (1st three) Xanth books have a character who is on the verge of becoming an outcast when his true nature is uncovered as one of the most powerful mages ever to live...and it takes him some time to master and understand his ability.In Sci Fi, one example of a story like this being told is Orson Scott Card's Ender series, where the genetically engineered child becomes one of the most dangerous military geniuses in the universe, and thereby saves humanity from the insect-like "Buggers".Re: Flaubert's Parrot: Blame a shoddy reviewer, then.  Tell me more about it.Re: Kushiel:Its definitely not as graphic as the Marquis' own work, but even though handled with a lighter touch, I'm sure he would find the divinely masochistic courtesan to be an interesting woman- possibly even his unreachable ideal.Re: Genres SF/F havent touched. Not bad.  Lets see-a tragedy in the "everybody dies" sense: Moorcock's 6th Elric book, Stormbringer, has our anti-heroic hero destroying everything he loves to defeat his foe- friends, family, empire...and then is slain in the last few pages by the demon-sword he has borne throughout the series.  Asimov's Nightfall, (called by some the greatest Sci-Fi story ever written)But lets go further and deeper- Many books in Moorcock's Eternal Champion series fit this description, especially the Elric arc.  He is never at rest, he and other "Champion Avatars" quest fruitlessly for "Eternal Tanelorn" (Moorcock's version of earthly paradise? heaven?).  Elric's use of mind-altering drugs prevent him from noticing the ebb and flow of events leading to his overthrow as Emperor of Melnibone when he could have done so easily.  The love of his life is his first cousin, Cymoril, and she is forever used as a pawn/wedge against him by another relative, Yrkoon the Usurper.  Elric surrounds himself with opportunists who use him, and his true friends are rare- usually since he winds up killing them to sate Stormbringer.  Like Achilles, Elric cannot see any other options before hm but the obvious path of conflict.  Elric, Corum and several other avatars die in their pursuit of happiness, usually betrayed by those closest to them.In a more positive vein...I stumbled across a couple of definitions that might be of aid in this discussion.  However, since I found them at 5AM, I didn't remember to note their attributions.  Originators, I apologize.Science Fiction is the fiction of Ideas.  Fantasy is the fiction of morals.The originator felt that Sci-Fi was fiction that generated new ideas about science & technology and how they effect change upon society, in terms of general expectations, quality of life, the nature of consciousness/humanity.Similarly, Fantasy follows forms like Greek Tragedies or religious fables in that it was about Good versus Evil.  Fantasy Heroes are often overthrowing a more powerful evil than has ever been seen (LOTR), conquering the evil within (Earthsea), or acting as the human tools used to enact the will of fate/the Gods to bring down people who have done evil to raise themselves up.While useful, we have already seen exceptions to these formulations.  We have seen fantasy that explores the nature of humanity (Pinnochio), and Sci Fi that has heroes overthrowing incredibly powerful opposition (Ender series, Battlefield Earth series, a lot of sci-fi from the 50's).  I still think add some freshness to the debate.</blockquote>

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