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Genre Conventions: What is fantasy?
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<blockquote data-quote="Wayside" data-source="post: 2302389" data-attributes="member: 8394"><p>But what does this have to do with SF needing a narrative of its own? It seems to me that literature is about content, that is, about interpretation. At a basic level, even plot is nothing more than imagery, as is setting, or imagery in the sense of "technological" or "fantastic." It seems to me tautologically true that if SF and F are imagery, i.e. have no content, then they are not literature, i.e. have no content.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, the genre would need a narrative element absent from another genre. But as I've said, all writing is mixed, so the argument that narrative X is not inherent to SF because it is present in work Y fails; Y may simply incorporate elements of SF. That line of reasoning is rough terrain in that to define one genre, you have to define them all. And by narrative element, I never meant story. I hope that was clear when I disarticulated the idea of de casibus tragedy you posted a quote about. Plot, like imagery, is only a surface; both plot and imagery can also have actual content, which is narrative.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think the number of exceptions is identical, but also, as Celebrim noted much earlier, defining an exception is every bit as problematic as argument by exclusion based on particular works.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Err, in order to define them as genres, you have already defined them in their exclusivity. The question isn't one of whether or not there is something exclusive about them--everybody who's made an attempt to define them has made an attempt to define them in their exclusivity--but of the value of what <em>is</em> exclusive about them. If the only exclusive thing is their imagery, how are they, in their exclusivity, valuable as literature? They can't be. On the contrary, <em>particular</em> works become valuable as literature in their <em>in</em>clusivity. The <em>work</em> of SF or F may be valuable inasmuch as it is <em>in</em>clusive of material beyond the scope of the genre.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If that flexibility is what defines them as genres, define them as genres in terms of that flexibility. Can any other genre make that claim though? Of course--<em>any</em> genre can. I can make a Tragedy mimic any bare plot; what defines it as tragedy goes deeper.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You're definitely right about that. Look at the hubbub over the Star Wars prequels, everything from the accents of certain races to how Palpatine takes power.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Wayside, post: 2302389, member: 8394"] But what does this have to do with SF needing a narrative of its own? It seems to me that literature is about content, that is, about interpretation. At a basic level, even plot is nothing more than imagery, as is setting, or imagery in the sense of "technological" or "fantastic." It seems to me tautologically true that if SF and F are imagery, i.e. have no content, then they are not literature, i.e. have no content. Yes, the genre would need a narrative element absent from another genre. But as I've said, all writing is mixed, so the argument that narrative X is not inherent to SF because it is present in work Y fails; Y may simply incorporate elements of SF. That line of reasoning is rough terrain in that to define one genre, you have to define them all. And by narrative element, I never meant story. I hope that was clear when I disarticulated the idea of de casibus tragedy you posted a quote about. Plot, like imagery, is only a surface; both plot and imagery can also have actual content, which is narrative. I think the number of exceptions is identical, but also, as Celebrim noted much earlier, defining an exception is every bit as problematic as argument by exclusion based on particular works. Err, in order to define them as genres, you have already defined them in their exclusivity. The question isn't one of whether or not there is something exclusive about them--everybody who's made an attempt to define them has made an attempt to define them in their exclusivity--but of the value of what [I]is[/I] exclusive about them. If the only exclusive thing is their imagery, how are they, in their exclusivity, valuable as literature? They can't be. On the contrary, [I]particular[/I] works become valuable as literature in their [I]in[/I]clusivity. The [I]work[/I] of SF or F may be valuable inasmuch as it is [I]in[/I]clusive of material beyond the scope of the genre. If that flexibility is what defines them as genres, define them as genres in terms of that flexibility. Can any other genre make that claim though? Of course--[i]any[/i] genre can. I can make a Tragedy mimic any bare plot; what defines it as tragedy goes deeper. You're definitely right about that. Look at the hubbub over the Star Wars prequels, everything from the accents of certain races to how Palpatine takes power. [/QUOTE]
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