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Genre Conventions: What is fantasy?
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<blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 2302479" data-attributes="member: 19675"><p>No, I don't think so. While I have seen dark comedies, I have yet to see a true Tragedy that falls equally into genre of Comedy. They are, in some sense, polar opposites.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>and</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would have thought it obvious by now: I am NOT trying to define SF/F by narrative- I'm refuting those that DO! When I restate the assertion that SF&F need unique narratives, it is that statment I'm trying to disprove.</p><p></p><p>On the one hand you say a lack of unique element destroys them as genres, then you critique me for pointing out that something is not unique to SF/F?</p><p></p><p>You also mis-state the argument form. The argument form wasn't "X is not inherent to SF because it is present in work Y." It was "No "X" can be "Y" without "Z," or to reformulate for clarity: "Only X containing Z can be Y," where X is genre, Z is something unique, and Y is literature. In other words, the only way a genre can be literature is if it has some unique element. It has nothing to do with mixed writing styles. I used "narrative element" because I thought that was what you meant by something unique.</p><p></p><p>I guess I'm puzzled by your distinction between narrative and content. What content defines a genre for you? What is "content?" What is it that you're trying to assert that other genres have that SF/F don't?</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I beg to differ. Asimov's <strong>Nightfall</strong> could not be told in any genre except SF, Fantasy, or one of its precursors like mythology. Why? The setting- a 6 star solar system- contains within it the very reason why civilization keeps collapsing on Kalgash. Yes, you can tell the story of a natural disaster in another setting- but THIS one also requires a certain psychology, borne of 1000 years of evolutionary pressure. The Kalgashians aren't just hurt by the "disaster" that befalls them- society actually collapses and rational thought virtually dissapears. If an asteroid wiped out most of humanity (NOT what happens in <strong>Nightfall</strong>, BTW), a goodly number of the survivors would be trying to rebuild. The majority of Kalgashians, in contrast, completely lose their ability to cope rationally. Culture is gone, and the people have gone insane. Gotterdamerung. Ragnarok</p><p></p><p>I reiterate: If we don't need a narrative element absent from other genres to define SF/F, then to what are you referring in post #243 when you say "They need to be able to do something other literary types cannot do"? Sounds like a narrative element to me</p><p></p><p>+++</p><p></p><p>Another stab. More of a refinement to part of barsoomcore's definintion.</p><p></p><p><strong>SF explores what it means to be a sentient being- it explores fundamental <em>otherness</em>.</strong></p><p></p><p>How is this different? Because it assumes that one can be both sentient and also completely alien from humanity in thought process. Cherryh's Atevi <em>look</em> a little like us, but they don't think like us. Stephen R. Donaldson's Amnion, Rusch's Disty, Gibson's AI's, Niven's Outsiders, Heinlein's "Bugs," Bear's Jart, Asimov's Kalgashi...they're all sentient beings, but their psychologies are entirely non-human. Some of them don't even have self-preservation as a fundamental motivation.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dannyalcatraz, post: 2302479, member: 19675"] No, I don't think so. While I have seen dark comedies, I have yet to see a true Tragedy that falls equally into genre of Comedy. They are, in some sense, polar opposites. and I would have thought it obvious by now: I am NOT trying to define SF/F by narrative- I'm refuting those that DO! When I restate the assertion that SF&F need unique narratives, it is that statment I'm trying to disprove. On the one hand you say a lack of unique element destroys them as genres, then you critique me for pointing out that something is not unique to SF/F? You also mis-state the argument form. The argument form wasn't "X is not inherent to SF because it is present in work Y." It was "No "X" can be "Y" without "Z," or to reformulate for clarity: "Only X containing Z can be Y," where X is genre, Z is something unique, and Y is literature. In other words, the only way a genre can be literature is if it has some unique element. It has nothing to do with mixed writing styles. I used "narrative element" because I thought that was what you meant by something unique. I guess I'm puzzled by your distinction between narrative and content. What content defines a genre for you? What is "content?" What is it that you're trying to assert that other genres have that SF/F don't? I beg to differ. Asimov's [B]Nightfall[/B] could not be told in any genre except SF, Fantasy, or one of its precursors like mythology. Why? The setting- a 6 star solar system- contains within it the very reason why civilization keeps collapsing on Kalgash. Yes, you can tell the story of a natural disaster in another setting- but THIS one also requires a certain psychology, borne of 1000 years of evolutionary pressure. The Kalgashians aren't just hurt by the "disaster" that befalls them- society actually collapses and rational thought virtually dissapears. If an asteroid wiped out most of humanity (NOT what happens in [B]Nightfall[/B], BTW), a goodly number of the survivors would be trying to rebuild. The majority of Kalgashians, in contrast, completely lose their ability to cope rationally. Culture is gone, and the people have gone insane. Gotterdamerung. Ragnarok I reiterate: If we don't need a narrative element absent from other genres to define SF/F, then to what are you referring in post #243 when you say "They need to be able to do something other literary types cannot do"? Sounds like a narrative element to me +++ Another stab. More of a refinement to part of barsoomcore's definintion. [B]SF explores what it means to be a sentient being- it explores fundamental [I]otherness[/I].[/B] How is this different? Because it assumes that one can be both sentient and also completely alien from humanity in thought process. Cherryh's Atevi [I]look[/I] a little like us, but they don't think like us. Stephen R. Donaldson's Amnion, Rusch's Disty, Gibson's AI's, Niven's Outsiders, Heinlein's "Bugs," Bear's Jart, Asimov's Kalgashi...they're all sentient beings, but their psychologies are entirely non-human. Some of them don't even have self-preservation as a fundamental motivation. [/QUOTE]
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