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Genre Conventions: What is fantasy?
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<blockquote data-quote="Wayside" data-source="post: 2307628" data-attributes="member: 8394"><p>If you prove it exists in another literary <em>form</em> then by that fact it is not unique to SF or F. What you've missed, again, is that <em>you cannot prove that an element exists in any form whatsoever</em>. You obviously aren't trying to work with me because this is very simple. You keep trying to show that an element exists in a specific <em>work</em>, which is very different from showing that it exists in a particular form because all works are a mix of forms.</p><p></p><p></p><p>First, it isn't logical nonsense, it's logic, period. Second, a genre or any class is logically dependent on its definition. For class α with definition β, α is β ( βα ). This is <em>not</em> necessarily 1:1 identity, although ideally it ought to be, otherwise you've failed to fully define the class. We are speaking here of the definition of a genre in its totality, not of a single distinguishing element, as your discussion in your later posts seems to assume quite out of nowhere. If you want to take the recipe approach to uniqueness be my guest, it doesn't threaten anything I've said in the least. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, I am, otherwise it's undefinable: for every class α1 and definition β, if α1 is β then α2 is not β ( (α1) [βα1 → ~βα2] ), otherwise α1 and α2 are the same thing, i.e. there is no α2.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I <em>never</em> made any such claim. I said that in order for SF and F to be literary, they must be able to do something (and that means something literary) in themselves that other literary types in themselves cannot do. I never said <em>anything</em> unique would be enough, as unique imagery is <em>not</em> enough. If you're going to insist on misrepresenting what I've said then just say so and I'll use the time I've spent here doing something more productive. I don't mind restating or clarifying if I've been unclear, but your entire post here is disingenuous.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's your straw man, not my standard. There isn’t any contradiction.</p><p></p><p></p><p>By force of what logic, the logic of winged cannibal pygmies? What part of "mixed" is unclear? The fact that SF can use elements of Tragedy now means that Tragedy is not Tragedy? I'm afraid not; the fact that SF can use elements of Tragedy means that writing is mixed and can use elements of both SF and Tragedy in a single work. It certainly doesn't mean Tragedy is not Tragedy or SF is not SF. To be absolutely clear, at the beginning of your post, you said "Anytime I prove that something exists outside of SF/F by a counterexample in another literary <strong><em><u>form</u></em></strong>, I de facto prove that it is not unique to SF/F." This is true, although you can never prove any such exclusion. But just now you said "The mere fact that another <em><strong><u>work</u></strong></em> outside of genre "X" posesses "Z" quality means by force of logic that "Z" quality is not a unique quality of ANY genre." This is <em>not</em> true. You keep treating work and form as synonyms. They aren’t.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Wayside, post: 2307628, member: 8394"] If you prove it exists in another literary [I]form[/I] then by that fact it is not unique to SF or F. What you've missed, again, is that [I]you cannot prove that an element exists in any form whatsoever[/I]. You obviously aren't trying to work with me because this is very simple. You keep trying to show that an element exists in a specific [I]work[/I], which is very different from showing that it exists in a particular form because all works are a mix of forms. First, it isn't logical nonsense, it's logic, period. Second, a genre or any class is logically dependent on its definition. For class α with definition β, α is β ( βα ). This is [I]not[/I] necessarily 1:1 identity, although ideally it ought to be, otherwise you've failed to fully define the class. We are speaking here of the definition of a genre in its totality, not of a single distinguishing element, as your discussion in your later posts seems to assume quite out of nowhere. If you want to take the recipe approach to uniqueness be my guest, it doesn't threaten anything I've said in the least. Yes, I am, otherwise it's undefinable: for every class α1 and definition β, if α1 is β then α2 is not β ( (α1) [βα1 → ~βα2] ), otherwise α1 and α2 are the same thing, i.e. there is no α2. I [I]never[/I] made any such claim. I said that in order for SF and F to be literary, they must be able to do something (and that means something literary) in themselves that other literary types in themselves cannot do. I never said [I]anything[/I] unique would be enough, as unique imagery is [I]not[/I] enough. If you're going to insist on misrepresenting what I've said then just say so and I'll use the time I've spent here doing something more productive. I don't mind restating or clarifying if I've been unclear, but your entire post here is disingenuous. That's your straw man, not my standard. There isn’t any contradiction. By force of what logic, the logic of winged cannibal pygmies? What part of "mixed" is unclear? The fact that SF can use elements of Tragedy now means that Tragedy is not Tragedy? I'm afraid not; the fact that SF can use elements of Tragedy means that writing is mixed and can use elements of both SF and Tragedy in a single work. It certainly doesn't mean Tragedy is not Tragedy or SF is not SF. To be absolutely clear, at the beginning of your post, you said "Anytime I prove that something exists outside of SF/F by a counterexample in another literary [B][I][U]form[/U][/I][/B], I de facto prove that it is not unique to SF/F." This is true, although you can never prove any such exclusion. But just now you said "The mere fact that another [I][B][U]work[/U][/B][/I] outside of genre "X" posesses "Z" quality means by force of logic that "Z" quality is not a unique quality of ANY genre." This is [I]not[/I] true. You keep treating work and form as synonyms. They aren’t. [/QUOTE]
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