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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 1620260" data-attributes="member: 2205">Maybe.  There's a lot of other interpretations of that as well, and your data doesn't support causality of the results you have.  A lot of folks here, for instance, have specifically stated that the rules don't drive maturity into the game, and so don't want rules changed to be "more mature", whatever that may mean exactly.Also, the publishing climate, specifically the d20 and OGL movement, eliminates the need for massive changes to the rules in order to get the the flavor any particular group may want.  I voted that I like D&D as is, but it's not true that I actually play D&D as is; I've removed whole modular sections and replaced them with other systems or rules that I've pirated from d20 publishers or Unearthed Arcana.  I've got a different magic system, almost completely different sets of classes and races, lots of miscellaneous rules that change some basic ways things work, etc.But I don't have the conceit that my game is "more mature" than anyone elses.  It just matches my tastes better.  Or rather, I think my game is mature, but not because of the rules.I think that's too nebulous a concept to really discuss authoritatively, for one thing.  I also think that the "D&D culture" is more influenced by external factors than internal ones.  In other words, the prevalence of CRPGs and the cross-pollination of folks who play those, who play mini wargames, who play CCGs, etc. are driving the changes in culture moreso than the rules themselves.A great example is the White Wolf push about ten or so years ago.  When Vampire and all the other Monster: the Gerund books first came out, they "encouraged" a much more roleplaying focused, narrative style game, but it wasn't because of the rules.  It was because of the flavor, the fluff, and the new converts to RPing that they courted with their imagery and pretentiousness.WW was good for the hobby, but looking back at those games now, I'm surprised how rules light they aren't and how the rules actually do nothing to really encourage the "Storytelling" paradigm any more than D&D rules did.In fact, even though the 2e AD&D rules remained more or less as they were, 2e is also famous as following the same trend with the "story-driven" modules and other products, like non-dungeoncrawl friendly settings.Embarrased in front of whom?  Their artsy-fartsy FUDGE player friends or something?The opposite is no better; "just RP it" means the real-life charismatic types always end up being the charismatic characters regardless of what their character sheet says.  To me, its important to not only RP the personal interaction, but also require a roll.  It adds more tension to the moment, as well as making sure that the characters actually behave somewhat as their stats and such show them to be.TI've never heard that.  I think Monte Cook has specifically said that the rules grew in response to getting new gamers into the fold, though, and giving more guidance to new DMs on how to handle more situations.  But experience and maturity are not the same thing.I think your biggest fallacy throughout this thread is that there is some relationship between game complexity and gamer maturity.</blockquote>

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