Gestalt: What to Fear as a GM

[two]

I'm starting a small campaign; players will be Gestalt, 30 point buy, old-school 3.5 only (core, no splat books). No prestige classes allowed. No psionics. No updated books.

So, what should I fear as a GM? (regarding core gestalt munchkinism)?

I don't fear a Wizard/Fighter. I can deal with that. Armor + Spells = no so good, etc. Stats are spread out.

I don't fear a Monk/Druid. Better AC but Not Full bab, monk feats -- OK.

I don't fear a Rogue anything.

I don't fear a Bard anything.

But...I have to be honest...

I kinda fear a Fighter/Cleric. Need Wisdom and some ConStr. Not so stat-dependent.

Typical Clerical nastiness + fighter bonus feats and d10 + better weapons... + full BAB

Call me crazy, but I find that a little intimidating.

A buffed cleric is already a fighting force (melee, if built that way).

Throw in d10 and Greatswords and feats and full BAB... could be very ugly.

+++++++++++++

Anything else to watch out for?

Druid/Cleric comes to mind...(still, non-full BAB)

Cleric/Wizard... (armor/spellcasting issues, though)...

??

 

[Hypersmurf]

Core-only reduces some of the frequent offenders - the Paladin/Sorcerer is a lot less scary with no Arcane Channeling and no Divine Might, for example.

Are characters restricted to single classes in each 'stream', or can someone take Monk/Druid for 1 level, and Fighter/Druid for the other levels?

-Hyp.

 

[Drowbane]

Gestalt Vanilla??!

Thats just mind boggling...

For me, as both a player and a DM, Gestalt is all about versitility! Anything "Core only" makes babyjesus cry.

 

[Jack Simth]

Part of it depends on where you want to draw the line between core and splat books - Are you looking at the Complete books as being valid? Are you using the Wildshape errata?

For the most part, though, that will kill most the cheese. The Fighter/Cleric, while tough, still has the little issues that spells expire, and many will need to be cast in combat, so he either buffs or fights, not both. Sure, for a fight you know will happen as soon as you step through the door, the Fighter-Cleric will seem rather above and beyond. In a surprise fight, the extra attribute dependency will mean the F/C spends a round or two buffing before wading in, which crimps the damage potential a might.

What you kinda need to watch out for are the people who use type B builds - that is, those who take a "primary" class that they care about, and tack on a secondary class for no other purpose than to enhance the first - E.g., the Sorceror/Paladin (a little self-healing, saves through the roof, decent HD, but mostly a blast monster; ignores the weapon and armor proficiency, acts as a normal sorceror).

Mostly, though, you don't need to worry about it too much unless you've got powergamers. Most players will try to be decent at the traditional roles of both classes.

Edit: What you really need to watch out for is overetimating what you can throw at them. Gestalt characters have a versatility boost much more than a power boost; almost everyone will almost always have something useful to do, almost nobody will have d4 HD and almost nobody will have less than two good saves (many won't have any bad saves at all) so they are more durable. They have more options, so they are slightly more effective vs. various critters. They aren't, however, sudden powerhouses; a Gestalt-10 isn't nearly as effective as a Wizard-20. Throw things about +2 CR higher than normal if the thing is dependant on special abilties with saves; +1 CR higher than normal otherwise, for the most part (specific party weakness exceptions, as always, apply).

 

[two]

Good question HP.

I am considering requiring everyone to keep their original classes the same from level1 to level20, barring some roleplaying justifications for class switching.

It sounds really restrictive...but c'mon. They are gestalt. You wanna fighter/mage, you got it from level 1 on (fighter/wizard).

This is my reason for banning all prestige classes as well. What's the point, really? Any reasonable character concept can be made with core gestalt PC's.

So, no switching. I've made up my mind.

 

[two]

Part of it depends on where you want to draw the line between core and splat books - Are you looking at the Complete books as being valid? Are you using the Wildshape errata?

For the most part, though, that will kill most the cheese. The Fighter/Cleric, while tough, still has the little issues that spells expire, and many will need to be cast in combat, so he either buffs or fights, not both. Sure, for a fight you know will happen as soon as you step through the door, the Fighter-Cleric will seem rather above and beyond. In a surprise fight, the extra attribute dependency will mean the F/C spends a round or two buffing before wading in, which crimps the damage potential a might.

What you kinda need to watch out for are the people who use type B builds - that is, those who take a "primary" class that they care about, and tack on a secondary class for no other purpose than to enhance the first - E.g., the Sorceror/Paladin (a little self-healing, saves through the roof, decent HD, but mostly a blast monster; ignores the weapon and armor proficiency, acts as a normal sorceror).

Mostly, though, you don't need to worry about it too much unless you've got powergamers. Most players will try to be decent at the traditional roles of both classes.

No complete. Nothing.

We will be using a 3.5 web resource circa 1-2 years ago.

 

[two]

Gestalt Vanilla??!

Thats just mind boggling...

For me, as both a player and a DM, Gestalt is all about versitility! Anything "Core only" makes babyjesus cry.

I enjoy boggling minds.

I dare you to come up with a reasonable character concept that can't easily be met by a core gestalt build.

Seriously.

 

[two]

Part of it depends on where you want to draw the line between core and splat books - Are you looking at the Complete books as being valid? Are you using the Wildshape errata?

For the most part, though, that will kill most the cheese. The Fighter/Cleric, while tough, still has the little issues that spells expire, and many will need to be cast in combat, so he either buffs or fights, not both. Sure, for a fight you know will happen as soon as you step through the door, the Fighter-Cleric will seem rather above and beyond. In a surprise fight, the extra attribute dependency will mean the F/C spends a round or two buffing before wading in, which crimps the damage potential a might.

What you kinda need to watch out for are the people who use type B builds - that is, those who take a "primary" class that they care about, and tack on a secondary class for no other purpose than to enhance the first - E.g., the Sorceror/Paladin (a little self-healing, saves through the roof, decent HD, but mostly a blast monster; ignores the weapon and armor proficiency, acts as a normal sorceror).

Mostly, though, you don't need to worry about it too much unless you've got powergamers. Most players will try to be decent at the traditional roles of both classes.

Edit: What you really need to watch out for is overetimating what you can throw at them. Gestalt characters have a versatility boost much more than a power boost; almost everyone will almost always have something useful to do, almost nobody will have d4 HD and almost nobody will have less than two good saves (many won't have any bad saves at all) so they are more durable. They have more options, so they are slightly more effective vs. various critters. They aren't, however, sudden powerhouses; a Gestalt-10 isn't nearly as effective as a Wizard-20. Throw things about +2 CR higher than normal if the thing is dependant on special abilties with saves; +1 CR higher than normal otherwise, for the most part (specific party weakness exceptions, as always, apply).

Yeah, good point.

I was thinking about that.. they have a few more hit points than average and better saves, generally...but that's about it. AC is the same. Other defenses are usually the same. Versatility in D&D is usually offensive, not defensive.

So yeah, I won't overwhelm them. I want to just throw the same CR level as book at them, but play the enemy's as well as I can, using every trick I can come up with. This means goblins spirited charging, kobolds lobbing goo, grapple/trip builds, etc.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, no switching. I've made up my mind.

Right. That takes care of a couple of other potential problems - a level or two of monk on the opposite stream to any divine caster means a huge boost to unarmoured AC, and doesn't cut into the development of another class that much.

So the Druid/Fighter with a level of monk, or the Cleric/Wizard with a level of monk, ceases to be such a problem.

Now you've just got to look out for the Cleric/Wizard with a Monk's Belt

-Hyp.

 

[two]

Right. That takes care of a couple of other potential problems - a level or two of monk on the opposite stream to any divine caster means a huge boost to unarmoured AC, and doesn't cut into the development of another class that much.

So the Druid/Fighter with a level of monk, or the Cleric/Wizard with a level of monk, ceases to be such a problem.

Now you've just got to look out for the Cleric/Wizard with a Monk's Belt

-Hyp.

Monk's belt.

How lame.

I'll just say this: it just won't happen, by chance, to turn up in any treasure...