Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khur" data-source="post: 1267741" data-attributes="member: 5583">Most people here, DMs it seems, don't like level loss because it doesn't resemble any sort of reality. In fact, it doesn't represent the reality of the core D&D game very well, either, because that reality isn't coherent, as I've said before. The fact of the matter is, temporary damage followed by Fort save mitigated permanent ability and hit point drain do much to represent the same sort of thing as level drain, but "feel" better to most people I know. I'll tell you reasons why I don't like level drain as a DM, who can only inflict it:1) It doesn't "feel" like a drain of life force, because it affects actual skill ranks and other techniques the character has learned, such as spells and feats--in other words, it drains knowledge, which is not a part of vitality. One can argue these things are a reflection of a taint on the characters spirit, inhibiting this or that trait, but even that is more accurately reflected by ability score drain.2) It makes the character weaker in a way that doesn't seem to represent life draining. When it's all over, the character functions perfectly as a character of his or her new level. With the same Con she's just as vigorous and robust, while with the same Wis his psyche is apparently unscathed. Yet, permanent loss of points from ability scores really hits where it hurts. Yet, when the proper magic is applied, the weakness goes away completely, unlike actual level drain (which almost always results in loss of XP).3) You can do things that make some ability or hit point loss permanent in a way that cannot be dealt with via magic, to make the powerful undead in your campaign terrifying and always able to "leave their mark". Requiring the healer to make a level check against 11 + the HD of the undead is a good way, with failure on that check indicating the healer cannot try to restore the afflicted character again, at least until the healer gains a level. Experience loss can always be healed with time and effort. This makes it hard to tell a story where an NPC is permanently crippled by contact with the forces of unlife (without working something up that's outside the rules), when most of those forces drain XP, not vitality. (I realize a few undead drain ability scores, but this fact supports my point.) Refer to #2.4) Because of 1-3 above, level drain strains the suspension of disbelief required to enjoy the game.5) It's a pain to have one PC lower level than the rest, unless that level difference is integral to the story. The lower level character can hamper the progression of the campaign.6) It's a pain to have a PC way behind in XP, which eventually leads to #1.7) It's a pain to recalculate all of the required changes, no matter how (simplified using DMG rules mentioned above) of when (during or after the game session) they're done.8) It can make a player feel like there's no point in trying, especially if that player was unlucky when others managed to remain unscathed.My players hate ability damage, but they don't hate level drain. They just think level drain is stupid--and it's not because their munchkins (some of them are veritable anti-munchkins). It's because it's less fun than other ways of adjudicating the same idea, as I've reasoned above. A rule that makes the game less fun needs to go. I acknowledge that something that is "less fun" for me and my players may work just fine for others.Magic item loss is a whole other thread, but I'll just say that equipment gets lost. It's that simple in my games.</blockquote>

Verification