Ghosts in armour

[Bagpuss]

If a ghost is wearing full plate and it manifests is that counted at all? If a ghost manifests and is carrying a weapon which is ghost touch is that a touch attack or a normal attack?

 

[javcs]

If it's ghost touch fullplate, yes, otherwise, no.

Normal, ghost touch simply means that it can be used by/against corporeal creatures normally and incorporeal creatures as though they were corporeal (while still letting them go through walls).

 

[Bagpuss]

What if they use a ghost touch weapon to attack him? Would that then "touch" the ghostly armour, hence it would count?

I would have thought it did count because for a magic weapon to hit the ethereal creature it needs to make it's 50% miss chance thus interacting with that plane and the ghost (including it's ethereal armour). Similarly if a ghost uses a +1 magic weapon on a material creature it has a 50% chance of interacting, ghost touch effectively makes this 100%.

In that case to the melee attacks of an ghost using a magical weapon count as touch attacks? Rather than it's actual natural attack?

 

[justfisch]

Is there a rule that says that using a magic weapon on the Ethereal plane lets you affect things on the material plane with a 50% miss chance? I have never seen this in print, but I may have over looked it.

cheers,
justin

 

[Bagpuss]

From the SRD.

Ghostly Equipment

When a ghost forms, all its equipment and carried items usually become ethereal along with it. In addition, the ghost retains 2d4 items that it particularly valued in life (provided they are not in another creature’s possession). The equipment works normally on the Ethereal Plane but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures. A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures when the ghost manifests, but any such attack has a 50% chance to fail unless the weapon is a ghost touch weapon (just as magic weapons can fail to harm the ghost).

The original material items remain behind, just as the ghost’s physical remains do. If another creature seizes the original, the ethereal copy fades away. This loss invariably angers the ghost, who stops at nothing to return the item to its original resting place.

Which seems to me it is either a touch attack and the players armour doesn't count or alternatively it is a normal melee attack, in which case a ghosts armour would count.

 

[javcs]

justfisch - you didn't overlook anything on this issue. Guess I missed that too.

The ghost can't pick up and hold a non-ghost touch item, unless it's fully ethereal (not manifesting) and the item is on the ethereal plane, in which case the item in question cannot affect anything on the material plane. Furthermore, if the ghost is not manifested on the material plane, only force effects can affect it from the material plane, and it can do nothing in response, force effects don't even cross from ethereal to material.

The Manifested ghost can manipulate ghost touch items only, it's ethereal plane gear, unless it is enchanted with the ghost touch special quality, does not manifest with it. When a ghost manifests onto the material plane it becomes an incorporeal creature on the material plane, magic weapons without the ghost touch special quality have a 50% chance to interact with the ghost, likewise with magical armors.

If the ghost has a weapon it is using, it is not a natural attack, therefore it is not a touch attack (unless the weapon has a special quality to treat attacks as touch attacks) when it makes the 50% interaction roll. It is a normal attack, using Dex, BAB, and other miscellaneous modifiers/enhancements.

Which seems to me it is either a touch attack and the players armour doesn't count or alternatively it is a normal melee attack, in which case a ghosts armour would count.

Why should the ghost's armor count? It specifically mentions weapons, not armor. Weapons do not equal armor.

 

[Bagpuss]

When a ghost manifests onto the material plane it becomes an incorporeal creature on the material plane, magic weapons without the ghost touch special quality have a 50% chance to interact with the ghost, likewise with magical armors.

Where are you getting that from? As far as I can see there is no indication that armour other than ghost touch armour (a +3 enhancement) works against incorporeal creatures.

If the ghost has a weapon it is using, it is not a natural attack, therefore it is not a touch attack (unless the weapon has a special quality to treat attacks as touch attacks) when it makes the 50% interaction roll. It is a normal attack, using Dex, BAB, and other miscellaneous modifiers/enhancements.

I don't agree.... SRD again.

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

No mention of natural attacks, just attacks in general and if the sword is incorporeal like the creature surely it would act in the same fashion.

Why should the ghost's armor count? It specifically mentions weapons, not armor. Weapons do not equal armor.

I'm starting to think that a ghosts armour doesn't count, but then neither does the players.

The thing is if the player's armour counts then so should the ghosts and visa versa, it doesn't make much sense otherwise. Note also the description of Incorporeal only mentions a loss of natural armour not armour or shield bonus.

 

[javcs]

Huh, guess I misread some of that section.

If a ghost's attacks were touch attacks, mage armor and ghost touch armor would be ineffective.

Look at the ghost template for further clarification, not just the incorporeal subtype.

 

[Bagpuss]

If a ghost's attacks were touch attacks, mage armor and ghost touch armor would be ineffective.

Okay but they are still incorporeal attacks, just incorporeal melee attacks rather than incorporeal touch attacks, so a persons armour doesn't defend against it. At least by my reading of it.

In fact mage armour and ghost touch armour wouldn't work against an incorporeal touch attack as far as I can see. Which does seem stupid that a +3 enhancement for armour doesn't end up working against stuff like a Wraith's touch.

The problem I see is incorporeal and touch are used together too often that in some parts of the rules they assume they are always together, and others don't. Hence the confusion.

Look at the ghost template for further clarification, not just the incorporeal subtype.

Oh I am, I think it just a matter of logic, not matching rules as written, hence more confusion

 

[Bagpuss]

ignore this I misread your post.