ghoul touch mechanics question

[evilbob]

The spell Ghoul Touch requires a melee touch attack to affect a creature. In the spell summary, the spell lists under saves "Fortitude Negates." In the spell description, two effects are listed: paralysis on the creature hit with a melee touch attack, and a separate sickening effect on surrounding creatures (other than the caster). The sickening effect is specifically described with "(Fortitude negates)" in the spell description; the paralysis effect is not.

My question is: is the paralysis effect also subject to a Fort save, or if the spell "hits," does that mean the creature affected is paralyzed without a save (the save is effectively the chance to hit, like Scorching Ray and the damage-only part of Chill Touch)? The two lines of reasoning are: 1) all other spells that list "Fortitude negates" in the summary typically mean all aspects of the spell, so both aspects of this spell require a save and can be negated; and 2) since the spell description specifically mentions that the sickening effect is "Fortitude negates" and does not mention it for the paralysis effect, the "Fortitude negates" line in the spell summary only refers to the second effect of the spell.

There may be many other arguments as well. There also seem to be spell precedents set on both sides. Other thoughts?

 

[Plot-Device]

They get no save. Keep the following in mind:

Wizard to hit. Wizard Hitpoints. Now I have to cast this, and then youch you just to stop you for 3 to 8 rounds. The chances of them being obliterated before they even get to touch you are pretty high.

 

[moritheil]

Saving Throw: Fortitude negates

The rules text doesn't say "See text," or "None and Fortitude negates," which is what usually occurs if part of a spell can be saved against but the first part can't. It seems to me that it's a regular Fort neg. spell whose secondary effect also allows Fort neg. (And it is, after all, only a 2nd-level spell.)

It's still useful even if the initial effect offers a save - after all, that's one save for 1d6+2 rounds, rather than the save every round that Hold Person offers.

What always bugged me about this spell was the fact that elves are immune to the real ghoul touch, but barring DM intervention, they aren't immune to this.

 

[evilbob]

The rules text doesn't say "See text," or "None and Fortitude negates," which is what usually occurs if part of a spell can be saved against but the first part can't. It seems to me that it's a regular Fort neg. spell whose secondary effect also allows Fort neg. (And it is, after all, only a 2nd-level spell.)

Well, this is the crux of position one, as stated above.

And, to be super-technical, the exact and literal interpretation of the rules would be that in the description of the spell summaries it essentially says that if only the words "___ negates" is written in the save line, that the entire spell is negated on a save. Nothing seems to directly contradict this that I can find - however, the description of the spell itself is misleading enough to warrant serious inquiry. It seems to imply - or rather, could seem to imply that the negation is done only to the second part of the spell effect.

 

[TYPO5478]

As usual, evilbob already knows what I think about this, but I've done a little more research to support my position. Admittedly, there are typically two types of attack spells: Front-end damage (where the caster must make an attack, usually a touch attack, against the target and where no save is allowed) and back-end damage (where, in lieu of an attack by the caster, the target has to make a save to avoid some or all of the effect of the spell). You could also refer to them as "active" and "passive" respectively.

However, not all spells fall into these categories. For example, touch of fatigue and temporal stasis both require a touch attack and allow a save (in these cases, a Fort save, same as ghoul touch). There are other examples that use different saves, most notably the cure wounds and inflict wounds series.

On the other hand, there are a few spells that neither require an attack nor allow a save (usually they're area effects). Most obvious of these is magic missile, but others include acid fog, black tentacles, waves of fatigue or exhaustion, and holy word (along with blasphemy, dictum and word of chaos).

So, while spells outside the front-end/back-end paradigm are not frequently seen, neither are they forbidden de jure. The problem with ghoul touch is that it is unclear what the notation "Fortitude negates" refers to. I personally think it refers to the primary effect of the spell, the same way that touch of fatigue and temporal stasis do. If the target resists the primary effect of the spell, not only is he not paralyzed, but others around him do not have to save to avoid being sickened. On the other hand, if the target fails his save, those surrounding him still get a chance not to succumb to his nauseating stench.

Whether that was the original intent of the spell, I don't know. But that does seem to be the way it works as written.

 

[reanjr]

The Fortitude negates in the text refers to other characters avoiding the stench, not whether or not the stench occurs.

The target gets a Fort save to avoid the effects entirely. If he fails, he's paralyzed and emitting a stench. Those within 10 ft. radius spread then must make a Fortitude save or be sickened.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I'd say that the Fort negates the whole thing, being paralyzed and the sickening effect. Compare this with Sound Burst, another spell that has 2 effects. One of the effects is damage, and the other is being stunned. However, Sound Burst clearly states that one of these effects can be saved against, but the other can not. This is noted as a Saving Throw: Fortitude partial. See below...

Sound Burst
Evocation [Sonic]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: 10-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
You blast an area with a tremendous cacophony. Every creature in the area takes 1d8 points of sonic damage and must succeed on a Fortitude save to avoid being stunned for 1 round.
Creatures that cannot hear are not stunned but are still damaged.
Arcane Focus: A musical instrument.

 

[Taraxia]

The rules text doesn't say "See text," or "None and Fortitude negates," which is what usually occurs if part of a spell can be saved against but the first part can't. It seems to me that it's a regular Fort neg. spell whose secondary effect also allows Fort neg. (And it is, after all, only a 2nd-level spell.)

It's still useful even if the initial effect offers a save - after all, that's one save for 1d6+2 rounds, rather than the save every round that Hold Person offers.

What always bugged me about this spell was the fact that elves are immune to the real ghoul touch, but barring DM intervention, they aren't immune to this.

No biggie. It *is* obviously meant to be more powerful than the real ghoul touch (1d4+1 vs. 1d6+2 rds of paralysis), and while elves are immune to *ghoul* touch they're not immune to the more powerful version of ghoul touch, ghast touch.

And the Ghoul Touch spell is closer to the abilities of a ghast than a ghoul, considering it also creates the aura of stench.

 

[evilbob]

Well, the sound burst example is still different because it is clearly laid out in the spell's description. It has multiple effects, but it describes exactly what is and is not affected by the save.

However, the off-hand mention about how this spell is actually trying to mimic the attack of the monster with the same name is pretty good argument for the "save to negate" camp, since the monster's attacks also have a save associated with it.