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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 3922549" data-attributes="member: 5143">Like...what?  And I mean from the options listed in the PHB.  And I can tell you that the people in my group don't really feel fulfilled from Aiding Another, making a grapple check that has a 5% chance of succeeding, throwing alchemist fires for 1d6 damage, throwing tanglefoot bags that have a 5% chance of doing anything, or pretty much any maneuver where there is over an 80% chance of failure.  It feels more like grasping at straws than contributing.There's always the "resorting to coming up with new, off the walls ideas" that normally read more as "appealing to your DM for help".  However, these ideas are HIGHLY dependent on your DM being nice.  Plus, when my players try them more often then not they are actually a thinly veiled way of being able to get powers they didn't have for free, so I'm not very accepting of them:Player: "Do I think I could cause a cave in by shooting an arrow at the roof over his head?  I think probably about 10 or so rocks would fall on him from 10 feet up, that would do 10d6 damage, right?"DM: "So, you want to be able to fireball just the location of your enemy by shooting an arrow?  I don't think so."Yes, and I could see all my players agreeing with that.  As long as the spotlight doesn't take more than 5-10 minutes before moving to someone else.  And they'd much rather the spotlight be cast for 30 seconds at a time, long enough to roll a dice or say a short sentence before the rest of them get to play again.Could be, but considering the Bard's performance lasted as long as it took for him to roll his perform check, and the DM to explain that he performed well and describe the reaction of the bartender and crowd there wasn't much time to actually do so.They'll be more bitter that the Bard made the last 5 or 6 die rolls in a row and that they weren't needed to help with any of them.  I'm exaggerating a bit, of course.  The players can handle short periods of this.  However, there was a large investigative mod where there was almost 3 hours of talking to NPCs, making Gather Information, Perform, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and other social checks.  The Barbarian and Fighter in the group were so bad at these skills that they couldn't have made most of them on a natural 20.  Also, the players who were playing those characters did so because they wanted to kill things and were bored.Well, the thing is the mechanics are when things get done.  Everyone in my group realizes that they can talk until they are blue in the face, they can come up with great ideas or solve puzzles, or solve crimes all they want....but in the end it comes down to the person who makes the die roll to determine if you succeed or fail.</blockquote>

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