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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lancelot" data-source="post: 6391503" data-attributes="member: 30022">While I appreciate the effort, I think the demon lords are a bit sketchy. The other conversions (barghest, bone bat, etc) are terrific, but I'd personally take a different approach to the demon lords.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Firstly, some of the power choices for Graz'zt are kind of odd. Hellish Rebuke? Hellfire? Infernal Shield? He's a demon lord, not an archdevil.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Further, his theme isn't really coming through. Graz'zt has never, in the fluff, ever been about massive fire damage. Fireball, fire shield, meteor swarm, incendiary cloud, wall of fire, hellfire rebuke, sulphuric cloud, control temperature, invoke hellfire. If this is the unique shtick for Graz'zt, the subtle and charming Dark Prince who is known for his honeyed words and lamia/succubi servants, then what powers does Fierna (Flame Princess of Phelegethos) or Mephistopheles (Master of Hellfire) or Imix (Prince of Evil Elemental Fire) get? This is a 1e problem: the spell lists for the archdevils and demon princes was actually pretty random.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Demonic Guile power is much more appropriate, and is a good addition. But problematic from a "fun" perspective, as noted below.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Too many powers. This was a huge problem in 1e/2e/3e, and something that 4e did better. My 3e breaking point was the 3 page write-up for Kyuss at the end of the Paizo Age of Worms campaign, where I was helpfully reminded that he had ray of frost prepared as one of his 0-level spells (alongside 200 other spells, including 9th level party-killers). In 5e, combat with Graz'zt is not going to last 20 rounds. Either he, or the party, will be downed within a dozen rounds. Probably faster. In that fight, what are the 6-8 most thematic and representative abilities that Graz'zt should exhibit? If he can cast mass suggestion and dominate person 2x each during the combat, there is absolutely no reason to note that he can use command at will. That will never be relevant. The combat has to last 16 rounds for Graz'zt to use each of his spells even once, not counting all of his other abilities.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There are some choices in the spell list which could be better done for 5e. For example, if all of Graz'zt's spells are automatically cast using 9th level slots, then command at-will is "interesting". There's not a whole lot of difference between a 9th level command and a mass suggestion; both are multi-target follow-my-order spells with disadvantage on the save due to Demonic Guile. I have a suspicion that spamming command every round (with disadvantage on saves) would not result in a particularly fun encounter. It's a stun-lock for most characters.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Onto the numbers: I kind of like the idea that 30th is the current maximum level before you start getting into can't-fight-gods territory. Accordingly, I'd suggest that Graz'zt is maybe closer to 25th-27th level. Demogorgon is the top demon, according to the fluff. Orcus and Graz'zt are in Tier 2, above most of the other demon lords. Rather than making Demogorgon 33rd level, it'd seem to make more sense to nudge Graz'zt down to a level which is still a deadly encounter for the most legendary (20th level) heroes around. Also, it creates some space to have Graz'zt accompanied by servant creatures. A 30th level creature, + re-usable gate and his Demonic Sacrifice power is starting to get into the realms of pointlessly difficult. I'd rather see a 25th level Graz'zt with servants or gated creatures, taking the total encounter difficulty up to nearer 30th level.</li> </ul>So, how would I go about Graz'zt?<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">6-10 spells or spell-like powers, maximum. The thematic stuff that he absolutely will use in a combat encounter. Anything else is hand-wavy for the DM, outside combat. I don't need to know that Kyuss has got read magic memorized (thanks, Age of Worms AP). Kyuss can read anything he darn well wants.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Change to 25th level, plus a limited ability to gate in creatures, or a simple list of the creatures that always accompany him: 1 marilith, 2 lamias, 4 succubi. Even without his servants, Graz'zt can manhandle a kraken, squash death knights, and snap balors in half. He doesn't need to be 30th level, simply because that's the top limit we've seen so far.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">For the matter, change the creatures he can gate. Graz'zt's fluff is about debauchery and decadence. I can't see him summoning 8 quasits in combat for any reason. Reduce the number of creatures summoned, and make them thematic: lamias, incubi, a marilith.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Change the spells and spell-like powers to mainly charms, darkness and acid effects. His nickname is the Dark Prince (2e/3e/4e), after all. Get rid of all the fire, which was never his bag. Keep some variant of Demonic Guile, although think very carefully about how this will play out. Dominate-with-disadvantage is really frustrating for the players. As the fighter, I don't really want to spend my entire encounter making a Wisdom save with disadvantage or dropping prone and ending my turn (command; usable on 9 creatures as a 9th level slot; at-will every round; not counting legendary or lair actions, or the attacks of Graz'zt's growing army of summoned minions). That doesn't make Graz'zt a fearsome opponent; it makes him a boring opponent.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lower his AC by a few points, or remove Parry. AC 30 is a bit rough, even if the fighters actually get a swing thanks to all the domination. Frankly, AC 25 is a bit rough, given an ancient red dragon is AC 22 (I believe?). If the concern is that he's not going to last long enough, then give him more hit points. Although, I think that his sacrifice-a-demon healing power should already give him plenty of resilience.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Switch dispel magic for counterspell. The latter can be used as a reaction to spellcasting, rather than wasting Graz'zt's action on getting rid of an existing magical effect. More dynamic in combat.</li> </ul>I guess most of my comments boil down to: I think there's a little too much direct 1e-to-5e translation going on here, without enough consideration of improvements made in all of the more recent versions of D&D. 2e added tremendous theme and personality to Graz'zt: the Dark Prince, his favored servants, his motivations and plans. 3e added a better understanding of balance and power, with more creature flexibility and greatly-augmented stats that would allow them to survive more than a few rounds against a high level party. 4e added the concept of distilling creatures down to their core essence, effectively merging the concepts of 3e's power and durability with 2e's improved story. 4e Dispater didn't have a list of 50-100 spell-like powers, but he could still summon iron walls, command devil minions, wield his legendary iron rod in combat, etc. He was a unique and thematic opponent without needing to have dozens of generic powers shared by many other archfiends. And 5e brings in new concepts of simplicity, bounded accuracy, and speed-to-play. I think the best 5e creatures will take the lessons learned from all previous editions of D&D, rather than just attempt a direct "old school" 1e conversion.[all views expressed above are my own, and your opinion is equally valid even if you disagree strongly] <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" /></blockquote>

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