Giving C&C another look

Reynard

aka Ian Eller
Supporter
A year or more ago, I had borrowed the Castles and Crusades PHB from a friend and wasn't particularly impressed. This was the first printing, with the horrible layout, so that probably didn't help my opinion. As I have been looking to recapture that old school feel recently -- I just started running a 1E ToEE campaign for my "almost weekly" group -- I decided to borrow C&C again and take a second look. The new layout of the PHB makes it a lot easier to settle down into the book and give it an honest read, and having monsters and Treasure on hand also gives me a good idea of what the game is supposed to look like.

Anyway, I have a few questions:

1) What is a good C&C "classic" dungeon crawl adventure that will give me and a group of players a good feel for the game?
2) How compatible with AD&D 1E is C&C? Can I run old 1E modules essentially out of the box?
3) What are C&C "essentials", besides the PHB and M&T? Are there any good 3rd party products, PDF or print, for the game?
4) Will C&C heal my wounded heart?

Thanks in advance.
 

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Reynard said:
1) What is a good C&C "classic" dungeon crawl adventure that will give me and a group of players a good feel for the game?
2) How compatible with AD&D 1E is C&C? Can I run old 1E modules essentially out of the box?
3) What are C&C "essentials", besides the PHB and M&T? Are there any good 3rd party products, PDF or print, for the game?
4) Will C&C heal my wounded heart?

Thanks in advance.

1. Try the "Rising Knight" it's a free downloadable adventure on the Troll Lords site, and it's a great lead into "Assault on Blacktooth Ridge". Though it can also be run as a stand alone.

2. Here's a post from the Goodman Games forum that explains how to convert from Basic D&D, AD&D and D&D 3.x...

Chris Rutowsky said:
Hello, my name is Chris Rutkowsky and I did the conversion of the Mysterious Tower from d20 to Castles and Crusades, and wrote an original module for C&C for Goodman Games.

Joe forwarded me an email in which a person wanted a guideline for converting a certain module (Crypt of the Devil Litch) to C&C. I personally don't have this module, however I can give you guys a quick guideline that I used myself to make things for Mysterious Tower work for C&C.

The easiest thing to convert is the monsters. All you need to do is look up the same monster in the C&C Monsters and Treasure book! You can mark the pages in the module and your M&T book with color coded sticky notes so that you always know what page to turn to in a hurry and don't have to bother with making notes.

If the monster you want to convert is not in the Monsters and Treasure Book, I would consult an older edition of D&D-- my personal favorite being the Basic D&D Rules Cyclopedia. If you don't have it you can buy the pdf for 5 dollars at rpgnow.com or buy a used one on ebay.

The monsters presented in the RC are 90% compatable with C&C rules. The only thing that you would need to actively convert is armor class and saving throws. To convert D&DRC armor class to C&C, simply subtract the given AC from 19. Remember that subtracting a negative number is the same thing as addition. So a D&D monster listed as AC 5 would be AC 14 in C&C (19-5= 14). A monster with AC -3 would become AC 22 in C&C (19+3 =22). Saves are easier to convert. If the creature saves as a fighter, thief, dwarf, or halfling it is Physical prime. If it saves as an elf, cleric, or wizard it is mental prime. Use the creatures HD as the bonus to all rolls (including saves, attacks, etc). Simple, eh?

If using 1st or 2nd Edition AD&D as a resource, armor class is also easy to manage. Simply subtract the listed AC from 20. So an AC 5 creature would be AC 15 in C&C and an AC -3 character would be AC 23 in C&C. Saves convert the same as in basic D&D.

If you want to convert DIRECTLY from d20 system, use the same Hit Dice and die type as the creature already has, but get rid of the bonus hit points. So a creature listed as 5d10+15 HD in d20 would convert to 5d10 in C&C. You should also take away any bonuses to the damage dice listed. If the bonus listed is higher than the die, just make the attack use the die type, and double it. So a creature listed as doing d4+5 damage, change it to 2d4. If a creature had d6+3 dmg, just convert it to d6. These changes are because hit points and damage are harder to come by in C&C than they are in d20. If a creature's good saves are FORT or REF, it is Physical prime. If it is WILL the creature is mental prime. If they are all good saves, it is physical and mental prime.

Converting Saves
Older editions of D&D had 5 saving throws. C&C has 6 and they are just about the same, except the C&C saves are directly linked to stats. The old D&D saves were as follows and converts to C&C as presented below:

Paralysis-- Str
Breath Weapon (and area of affect spells like fireball)-- Dex
Poison, Death-- Con
Wands, Staves, Wands (and Illusions)-- INT
Spells (except illusions and area of affect spells like fireball and charm or sleep spells)-- WIS
Enchantment spells (sleep, charm, etc) and fear= CHA

Converting d20 saves is a little trickier and involves a judgement call by the CK converting it. You just have to use some logic as to which converts to what.

FORT-- STR or CON (depending on the effect)
REF-- DEX
WILL--INT, WIS, or CHA (Depending on the source of the spell/effect, CK's call)

Converting DCs to Challenge Levels.

I use a simple formula for this. I assume that DC 15 is the average DC of a check in d20. In C&C, the average difficulty of a task is CL 0. So every 1 the DC is higher than 15 in D20, the CL is 1 higher. So a DC 19 check would convert to a CL 4 check. For every 1 the DC is lower than 15 in D&D, the CL is -1. So a DC 12 check would be CL -3 in C&C. The CL of course is added to the base of 12/18 depending on if the character is prime in the required stat.

Converting Skill Checks
Simply make the skill check into an attribute check for the skill that is normally tied to that attribute. You may want to give certain classes a bonus in this, or even restrict who can try based on class. For instance a Search check would simply convert to an INT check, which anybody can do, but a Survival check to track somebody should be limited to rangers or maybe druids (with a penalty as it is not a class ability for them).

Converting damage from traps--
If the trap is related to a spell, look up the C&C equivilent and adjust the effect accordingly.

If the damage is related to a weapon, look up that weapons damage in C&C and convert it.

If damage is listed as a die with a damage bonus exceeding the die types, add another die to the damage instead. If it has a damage bonus less than the die type, get rid of the bonus damage.

So if a trap is listed as doing 5d6+7 damage, convert it to 6d6 damage for C&C. If it does 5d6+4 damage, it just does 5d6.

Well, that is all that comes to mind for now. Let me know if you think of any other questions about conversion.

3. Uhm...I don't think anything besides those two books are "essentisl". Maybe the CK screen, but the rules are easy enough to remember that I don't know if I'd rate it as essential.

4. How wounded is it?
 

Reynard said:
2) How compatible with AD&D 1E is C&C? Can I run old 1E modules essentially out of the box?

Very. Just switch the AC and THAC0 around, and you've basically got it.

3) What are C&C "essentials", besides the PHB and M&T? Are there any good 3rd party products, PDF or print, for the game?

No essentials, save maybe the DM screen (which I highly recommend). As for 3rd party products, word has it that Pathfinder will have support for both C&C and True20. Also, Goodman has some C&C versions of some of their DCC modules.

4) Will C&C heal my wounded heart?

It may, if you let it in. ;)
 

Reynard said:
1) What is a good C&C "classic" dungeon crawl adventure that will give me and a group of players a good feel for the game?
There's a C&C conversion of B1 floating around out there. Beacon at Enon Tor is a quickie C&C adventure adapted from White Dwarf magazine. Also, any of the old B or X modules work well, as do the AD&D modules.

Lastly, I really like Gabor Lux's adventures. Check out The Garden of al-Astorion. It rocks.

2) How compatible with AD&D 1E is C&C? Can I run old 1E modules essentially out of the box?
Very compatible. And yes, you can convert on the fly. However, I can't help wondering about this one. Since you're already running AD&D, switching to C&C to run AD&D adventures raises my eyebrows.

3) What are C&C "essentials", besides the PHB and M&T? Are there any good 3rd party products, PDF or print, for the game?
See my post, here.
 

Philotomy Jurament said:
Very compatible. And yes, you can convert on the fly. However, I can't help wondering about this one. Since you're already running AD&D, switching to C&C to run AD&D adventures raises my eyebrows.

One of my groups is happy to play AD&D; the other group won't, but is willing to give C&C a try.
 


Right now one of the nicest things about C&C is the fact that once you have the PHB and M&T you really do have all you need.

They covered the basics above on conversion, so I think you're well in hand there.

To me the other essentials depend on whether you want new setting material or not. I highly recommend Gary Gygax's Yggsburgh/Eastmark setting, especially if your interested in eventually running his Castle Zagyg. I just got TLG's main setting, Aihrde: After Winter Dark folio, and it is quite good as well.

My biggest piece of advice is to really let yourself enjoy the seige mechanic and what it can do. Alot of new-comers used to "crunch" heavy mechanics don't really explore all the things it can really do, since it doesn't list specific skills, but instead allows you to let players try multitudes of actions. Have fun with it, listen to what players ask to do and use the seige to let them try and your interested group will probably find out they like the system a lot. :D

Hope you have a blast!
 

seskis281 said:
My biggest piece of advice is to really let yourself enjoy the seige mechanic and what it can do. Alot of new-comers used to "crunch" heavy mechanics don't really explore all the things it can really do, since it doesn't list specific skills, but instead allows you to let players try multitudes of actions. Have fun with it, listen to what players ask to do and use the seige to let them try and your interested group will probably find out they like the system a lot. :D

On first blush, it seems like actions are really easy for PCs, especially when attempting a Prime action -- stat bonus + level vs. 12 means a pretty good chance of success. that's not a bad thing necessarily, but it is a little different than the "try and try again" aspect of 1E AD&D.
 

Reynard said:
On first blush, it seems like actions are really easy for PCs, especially when attempting a Prime action -- stat bonus + level vs. 12 means a pretty good chance of success. that's not a bad thing necessarily, but it is a little different than the "try and try again" aspect of 1E AD&D.
Keep in mind that you only add your level if it's a class ability (or saves, etc). Also, the level of the challenge tends to rise as the PC level rises. That is, if you're saving against a wizard's spell, the wizard's level modifies your roll. And at best, only half your ability scores will be prime (only two of them, if you're not human).

That said, I house-ruled my C&C games to use AD&D saving throws instead of using the SIEGE engine. I also prefer the old approach for handling surprise, rather than a Wis-based SIEGE engine check (which can tend to make your cleric the ambush detector).
 

Combine A1 and A2 of the C&C modules with "Keep on the Borderlands" and you'll be set for a good long while. Definitely long enough to fall in love with C&C or decide it isn't for you.

If your still going after that visit us on the TLG Forum and we'll be happy to offer other ideas. Share house rules, etc...
 

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