Giving out treasure

[Nail]

Honesty up front: I'm a stingy DM. But this isn't about that, per se.

When I look over the treasure per encounter rules, I notice there is no provision for the poor hapless monsters using said treasure. I many cases, this isn't (much) of a problem; your PCs will get the Adamantine Vorpal +5 Greatsword, just as soon as they can pry it out of the fingers of the Half-fiendish Minotaur Barbarian who weilds it.

But what about "disposable" items, like potions, scrolls, and wands? If they are part of the monsters "treasure", determined by EL, then that wealth total is changed if the monster uses it up, during the course of battle.

I perfer to say: "Tough beans".

My players would prefer...otherwise. Something involving rope, a rail-road tie, a bucket of tar, and some chicken feathers, I'm told.

Thoughts? This is a rules discussion.

 

[Ranes]

It sounds like we possess the same stingy gene but I would determine the creature's inventory by the treasure generated. The creature would have access to some or all of the treasure, depending upon encounter-specific circumstances, such as the creature being out of reach of its hoard, where some of its consumables are left for safe-keeping.

This means my players are rewarded more for defeating the creature quickly or by otherwise preventing it from consuming those resources during their confrontation. Any encounter they handle poorly has the potential to become increasingly difficult and less well rewarded. Sometimes. That's just me.

If your players trust you and want to lynch you at the same time, you must be doing something right.

 

[S'mon]

If you think the monsters using their magic treasure shafts the PCs, you could always equip the monsters with wealth as NPCs of their CR. The Monster Manual humanoid's standard equipment presumably isn't counted towards their treasure, anyway - nothing to stop PCs selling those orc falchions or whatever.

However, if you were really a stingy DM you wouldn't be asking this question.

 

[Silverglass]

The primary limiting factor on monsters using consumables is their ability to identify what they are. If prospective treasure is considered to mainly be loot taken in battle then this category of monster would need an Identify spell or Alchemy roll unless they want to risk using an unknown item.

The only usual consumables you really need to worry about are potions (wand and scrolls being less of an issue due to the use restrictions).

So you don't have to have intelligent monsters "ignoring" useful items in their inventory, the fact is that often a monster would have items that can't identify so wouldn't risk using. That's not to say that more intelligent opponents will not identify their items if they have the chance or that they wouldn't risk quaffing an unknown potion if the situation is dire as the vast majority would be beneficial or at least not-harmful.

So a reasonable stance to take is that monsters will always use items that are obvious (swords and armmour being an obvious case in point) and will probably use some other if they could reasonably have identified what they do and also gained the command word for items where this is relevant.

PCs are limited in fully exploiting their items unless they have been properly identified, so should the monsters or your world is inconsistent.

 

[DrSpunj]

If your players trust you and want to lynch you at the same time, you must be doing something right.

He is, lots of things!

As a player in his group I can say we're all having a good time. As a DM for my own group, this issue has broader repercussions than just my own personal enjoyment, as I'm not sure how this is all supposed to work to be fair, to DMs and players.

AFAI can tell Nail equips our goblin enemies with treasure (presumably appropriate for their CR/level). If they can use it, they do. That's all well and good; they are intelligent and should make use of anything at their disposal to keep themselves alive and try to do us harm.

My problem is when do the DMG Wealth by Level guidelines apply?

Say you have a standard 1st level party of 4 PCs. They fight a handful of goblins, one of which possesses a Potion of Cure Light Wounds (50 gp). Which of the following scenarios is true?

1) The CLW potion is already considered treasure for the Party's Wealth total. If they don't kill the goblin fast enough, i.e. before he drinks it, then that's their loss.

2) The CLW potion is only considered treasure if it's actually retrieved by the party after the battle. If the goblin used it then it isn't counted because the party never got a hold of it.

I ask because a 2nd level PC according to the rDMG should have 900 gp, that's 3,600 gp for a standard party. If you go with scenario #1 they quickly lose out on a large number of disposable items and therefore come up looking short when you total up the party's wealth. After 5 levels of play that can be pretty substantial, potentially leading to the party being under equipped against CRs of their otherwise appropriate level.

Another way to ask a similar question: If there's treasure to be found, but the PCs don't find it, should it be added to the Party Wealth Total or not?

It's easy to say "they missed out, their loss", but if their habits don't change the party again starts to run low compared to where the Core rules expect them to be. Encounters start to be tougher because the party isn't as well-equipped as the should be.

Do you compensate for that with extra XP because the encounter was more difficult? Unless you increase the treasure, that just exacerbates the discrepancy between Character level and Wealth!

What does everyone else do? And what is the "correct" way according to the Core rules? (And do people agree with the rules, if they are clear on the subject and I just missed it!)

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Shallown]

I use the wealth by level as a guide to what they should have on average for a level. I don't count treasure, items not gained as part of that. I also tend to give them Items a fair bit (thank yous, rewards etc).

The bad guys use their items in accordance to their knowledge and ability. I often include empty potion bottles and blank scrolls as part of the treasure so players know what might have been used up. That is sometimes useful knowledge. (for example if one organization teleports away but uses scrtolls mostly to do it the players can try to stop the mage with a silence to prevent escape) Or A teleport ring etc.

Later

 

[Nail]

The primary limiting factor on monsters using consumables is their ability to identify what they are.

Right.

I agree completely. But......(glances around, sees his players monitoring this thread).....let's just say they always knew what magic items they had. Then what?

As DrSpunj mentioned, the problem is: "What counts for treasure?" Are the potions the monster used when attacking the PCs treasure? If not, how many can/should a monster have?

The problem is broader than simple potions. What about *any* consumable treasure item? (wands, scrolls, elixirs, dusts, etc) At low levels, monster hoards often have these, and they make up a significant percentage of the loot.

 

[DrSpunj]

What about *any* consumable treasure item? (wands, scrolls, elixirs, dusts, etc) At low levels, monster hoards often have these, and they make up a significant percentage of the loot.

But if the party never lays hands on them, is it really loot?

IMC I've taken a different approach. Because I haven't laid out everything more than a few battles ahead, I can adjust the potential treasure for next session, up or down, depending on what the party found this session. That way I don't have to worry if they somehow managed to walk right by the "Big Goblin Treasure Vault" (tm).

Instead, if they missed it, they'll find a few more items and a little extra gold sprinkled in the next half a dozen encounters they face, or stumble upon a cache hidden in an owlbear's cave (that wouldn't have even been there if they'd managed to find the goblin's trove).

If I don't do something along those lines the party's wealth starts to drop, and then I'm forced to compensate in some other way to make up for the fact that they don't have the gear the Core rules expect them to have. It's easy enough to shrug off the difference and just reward them a few extra XP because the encounter was that much tougher, and sometimes I choose to do that, but as I said before, in the long run that just exacerbates the problem.

Some where at some time an "injection" of treasure is needed to restabilize the situation. That can come whenever the DM wants it to. In the worst case scenario, it will come after a TPK when everyone brings in characters of similar level as their old PCs, assuming they're starting play with wealth per the DMG guidelines.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

.... In the worst case scenario, it will come after a TPK when everyone brings in characters of similar level as their old PCs, assuming they're starting play with wealth per the DMG guidelines.

Right.

Well, that's the way we'll have to do it, then.

I dunno. I may be the DM, but I kinda prefer a less direct approach.

 

[DrSpunj]

I dunno. I may be the DM, but I kinda prefer a less direct approach.

Well, I'm glad you feel that way.



Nail and I have been looking at this for the last couple of days. I'm pretty sure we know where each of us is coming from, and respect those positions.

I'm glad to see some others views/posts. Anyone else care to share?

Thanks.

DrSpunj