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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 5719262" data-attributes="member: 53980">Yeah, but even in those games (assuming they're playing an ordinary character) they can't just say "I want to flap my arms and fly away."  There's always a greater or lesser degree of player narrative control in a good game (IMO).  The final say might be left up to the players, the dice or the DM.  If I ask my DM, "Are there any elves in the town square?" and the DM hasn't made a decision beforehand, I'm participating in the narrative process.  An undefined variable suddenly requires definition, and therefore must be defined for the game to continue.  I might have a Drama Point that allows me to tell the DM that there are elves in the square (automatic success for anything reasonable to the narrative).  The DM might decide that it's reasonable and, wanting to see where I go with this, say yes.  The DM might remain impartial and roll dice to resolve the matter, or say "You aren't sure, give me a perception check". The DM can also just say no.  This, IMO, most closely mirrors the OP's example.  What I'm saying is that, unless the DM has a good justification for doing so, he shouldn't just say no.  I'm also saying that, the unfortunate reality is that this is too often the case.In any of the above cases (even the automatic no), the player has steered the narrative a certain direction, thereby exerting narrative control.  Prior to resolving the question, both the players and the DM were unaware as to whether or not there were elves in the square.  Afterward, they either know the answer or at least know that they don't know the answer.  To use an analogy, if you're sitting in the driver's seat, I can grab the wheel and exert control.  You might have more control than I, but I have some control nonetheless.  An RPG is like a car where the DM is in the driver's seat, but all of the passengers also have a hand on the wheel.  When the driver and passengers cooperate, you have a nice ride.  If they don't, the car will most likely crash.  How much control the passengers prefer to exert on the wheel is up to them, but some DMs think that they're the only one driving and that typically results in all kinds of Mary Sue nonsense and other nastiness.</blockquote>

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