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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 5719276" data-attributes="member: 48965">Correct, but what they can create whole cloth is usually defined and the DM is not given veto power over it as long as they pay the appropriate cost. In the examples given it is still very much under the DM's control as he has the final say.  Participating in the narrative and having narrative control are two different things. Just by playing one's character you are participating in the narrative... that does not however equate to narrative control. In your example above if you can tell the DM that the elves are there you have exerted narrative control... other wise you are participating but not controlling the narrartive... the DM ultimately is.  I think the issue is just where one DM's line of "good justification" is drawn as opposed to another DM's. This also has alot to do with playstyles, genre, etc..  On another note... if a player just wants to roll dice and kill some orcs, he isn't necessarily going to enjoy or even expect to have narrative control... so again, blanketing it in terms of good and bad doesn't seem correct given the nuances involved.  Yet ultimately (except in the drama point case) the DM still has narrative control. He can decide or not decide what does and does not exist. The player is involved in the narrative but is not actually controlling it.   I think your analogy is off. In your example no one has to ask the DM and get permission before grabbing the wheel... yet in the examples of play presented so far that is exactly what is happening. The characters are asking the DM if something exists and the DM ultimately still has the control over the narrative.   This is full of assumptions that aren't necessarily true. Being a DM that maintains narrative control in your game does not auto-equate to you being the only one participating or even driving the narrativbe since the PC's still have their character's and their abilities to try and shape the narrative. As to Mary Sue characters... they have nothing to do with whether you invest narrative control in the GM or whether it's shared, that's about a GM choosing to elevate an NPC above his players and can happen regardless of whether the PC's have narrative control or not.</blockquote>

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