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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 5719351" data-attributes="member: 53980">To elaborate on my previous post (I was posting from my phone), I think it is you who is misunderstanding something about my analogy.Everyone in the car has a hand on the wheel.  The DM may be a 400 lb gorilla, and thereby impossible to be overpower but that doesn't mean that the passengers aren't trying to turn the wheel one way or the other.If a player tries to take the "there are elves here" exit and the DM forces the car down the "there are no elves here" exit instead, the player has forced a change in the narrative.  Whereas before they were Schrodinger's elves, now they are now the elves of null.  It may not have been the change the player desired, but it is a change brought about by the player nonetheless.  We know something now within the game that we didn't know before.  Even the DM can't retcon it down the road without making a mess.  Plenty of mechanics give players narrative control.  If I have my fighter attack an orc, the combat rules give me that control.  I may or may not succeed, but I've changed the narrative just by trying.  Of course, the DM can tell me that I can't attack the orc, but he should have a darn good reason or he's being arbitrary.  Even the DM doesn't have total narrative control.  He has veto power, but if my magic user casts magic missile and the DM tells me that my auto-hit magic missiles missed, he'd better have a good reason for vetoing my narrative control.  I should be able to make a spellcraft check to determine that my target is protected by a Shield spell, or that it has magic resistance.  If my DM's justification is "just because I felt like it" he's cheating and his players have a right to feel slighted.When you say that some players don't want narrative control, I think what you mean is that players don't want total narrative control.  I believe that's true most of the time.  If it weren't, the DM's role would be fairly meaningless and the game wouldn't be much of a game.  However, I think that the only time players exert no narrative control is when they are being passive observers.  There's a good amount of space between being the audience and being the DM's equal, and that's where I think most players fall.  In my experience, players want to be able to contribute to the narrative without necessarily dictating it.  I think that a good DM enables his players, without letting them walk all over him.</blockquote>

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