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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5724437" data-attributes="member: 957">I find there is a big difference in what constitutes "narrative control".Its no secret that I find 4E to presume mutual narrative control in a manner that takes greatly away from the quality of the experience.But for this specific example I agree completely with the OP.The way I put it in the other thread was, "characters should only be able to do things that characters in a novel could do."Well in novels or TV shows the resourceful/knowledgeable archetype knowing a short cut is absolutely not just reasonable, but expected.  Now, if was established that the city in question had a Berlin Wall type feature and the short cut needed to cross over that feature, then, at a minimum, the level of skill (DC or however else you want to look at it) would go way up.  And in a case like that an answer of "NO" is not only reasonable, it is highly preferable.  But I've added that feature to this example.  In the example as given, the shortcut makes absolute sense to me.  I embrace that idea.The other thread was specifically about surges.  I agree that this is a different topic.  But the point being made was that narrative control which results in wounds vanishing or never being received in the first place IS a bad thing.  ("for my style of gaming")  I present that NOT with the intent of reviving surges here, but to present a counter-offer and important context to the origins of this debate.(A) Short cut across the city is player narrative control.  (B) Serious wounds vanishing from a fighter is player narrative control.  (C) And angry barbarian suddenly throwing fireballs from his eyes is player narrative control.  There seems to be a presumption that you either accept or reject the idea of player narrative control.  I reject that as a false dichotomy.  I suspect that most players agree that (A) is good and (C) is bad.  And (B) seems to be in the zone where there are folks on both sides.</blockquote>

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