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Giving the arcane gish an identity.
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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8332597" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>IMO, the Warlock is an exception to this because of the stupid Patron. There is a strong theme attached to the Warlock class, but it really is the only one.</p><p></p><p>I disagree. I think this is mostly a throwback to the older editions and while people tend to play to certain themes, I don't think they are engineered into the class for the most part.</p><p></p><p>The Bard and Sorcerer are both Charisma-based casters, but you can build almost any theme around either of them. Changing a sorcerer to Constitution doesn't really change the theme at all IMO, it just changes their spellcasting ability.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think so. There is a difference in how they fight and some of them are easier to align to certain social aspects, but they are not exclusive. All three though get fearsome reputation ability and use it the same way.</p><p></p><p>The Rogue and Barbarian in particular can be very, very similar, I would argue even indistinguishable in terms of roleplay. You wouldn't know until combat started, and even after combat you might not know just from the description of it. You can easily make a Rogue that is a furious war machine and unless you listened to the mechanics with words like "Rage" or "Sneak Attack" there could be no thematic difference if that is what you wanted to do.</p><p></p><p>The wizard is a full caster and that is going to bring a different element, but it isn't going to be any different than another full caster like a Cleric or Sorcerer unless you make it so.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think the class should not be the character identity. The background, backstory and potentially race should are your primary theme. IMO you should pick a class where the mechanics will work with those things and use the class features, INCLUDING feats to make that.</p><p></p><p>Remember feats are class features, they are in the class tables and are part of the feat chassis. Unless you play a variant human or custom lineage, your class is the only way to get a feat.</p><p></p><p></p><p>There is nothing that prevents bladesingers from using the GWM feat, using shields or using medium/heavy armor or using any of those weapons. Take mountain Dwarf, trade one of your weapons for a maul, choose bladesinger subclass and at 4th level choose GWM. You are now a bladesinger that can wield a Maul using BB/GFB with GWM. Pick a different race without armoer and weapons and you can still do it all, it just takes more time to come online.</p><p></p><p>Now if you want shields too you will need another feat, but if you are wielding a maul you probably don't want that. Take medium armored feat at 4th level instead if you want to sword and board.</p><p></p><p>Assuming a 14 Dex with shield spell she has a 22AC while swinging a maul, when she hits 6th level she gets bladesinger extra attack combining an attack and magic as one action and can do it with a maul. There are other abilities she can't use, but if this is the character you want to build those other abilities she can't use are not really important anyway.</p><p></p><p>If that is what you want to build, then yes you should take feats to do it. As I noted above feats are part of the wizard chassis, they are class abilities, you get them from the wizard class. If you want to play an Arcane GISH and Ranger suits you better, then play a Ranger and take magic initiate as a Ranger feat to pick up booming blade and green flame blade. What I don't get is the argument that you should not have to use a feat when other classes do.</p><p></p><p>Tavern brawler is a fine feat for a strength-based bladesinger if that is what you want. It gives you proficiency in improvised weapons which you can use to make an improvised weapon attack with vials of acid, poision, oil and holy water and it gives you a bonus-action grapple after that (which can be enhanced by spells). You can attack with a vial of oil and follow up with Green-flame blade and get the extra fire damage from the oil on the same turn while also getting a free grapple. You can also use holy water or acid to stop many opponents from regenerating in the same turn you hit them with your GFB (again in addition to grappling them). With the free grapple you can position enemies so your 2nd enemy GFB damage lands more often (in addition to all the other things you can do with a grappled creature). If you add the grappler feat to this you can potentially get advantage on all of your attacks after the first improvised weapon strike, which a huge damage boost. This lasts until the enemy uses an action to TRY to break it. I am not saying that is what you should play, but if you dump W/Ch and run a 14 intelligence this will be quite a powerful melee character.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree on the Warlock, and I have not played an Artificer, but I disagree on both the EK and the Bladesinger and if you find this to be the case I think it is because you didn't build your character out to do what you actually wanted to do and instead built to some predefined stereotype. You can play the character you claim you want to play with either of these.</p><p></p><p>I will say a Bladesinger can do GISH better than an EK, and honestly better than any other build, primarily because their extra attack feature is better and they get more spells, but there is nothing saying you need to take fireball and hypnotic pattern. Take spells that identify with the GISH character you want to be.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8332597, member: 7030563"] IMO, the Warlock is an exception to this because of the stupid Patron. There is a strong theme attached to the Warlock class, but it really is the only one. I disagree. I think this is mostly a throwback to the older editions and while people tend to play to certain themes, I don't think they are engineered into the class for the most part. The Bard and Sorcerer are both Charisma-based casters, but you can build almost any theme around either of them. Changing a sorcerer to Constitution doesn't really change the theme at all IMO, it just changes their spellcasting ability. I don't think so. There is a difference in how they fight and some of them are easier to align to certain social aspects, but they are not exclusive. All three though get fearsome reputation ability and use it the same way. The Rogue and Barbarian in particular can be very, very similar, I would argue even indistinguishable in terms of roleplay. You wouldn't know until combat started, and even after combat you might not know just from the description of it. You can easily make a Rogue that is a furious war machine and unless you listened to the mechanics with words like "Rage" or "Sneak Attack" there could be no thematic difference if that is what you wanted to do. The wizard is a full caster and that is going to bring a different element, but it isn't going to be any different than another full caster like a Cleric or Sorcerer unless you make it so. I think the class should not be the character identity. The background, backstory and potentially race should are your primary theme. IMO you should pick a class where the mechanics will work with those things and use the class features, INCLUDING feats to make that. Remember feats are class features, they are in the class tables and are part of the feat chassis. Unless you play a variant human or custom lineage, your class is the only way to get a feat. There is nothing that prevents bladesingers from using the GWM feat, using shields or using medium/heavy armor or using any of those weapons. Take mountain Dwarf, trade one of your weapons for a maul, choose bladesinger subclass and at 4th level choose GWM. You are now a bladesinger that can wield a Maul using BB/GFB with GWM. Pick a different race without armoer and weapons and you can still do it all, it just takes more time to come online. Now if you want shields too you will need another feat, but if you are wielding a maul you probably don't want that. Take medium armored feat at 4th level instead if you want to sword and board. Assuming a 14 Dex with shield spell she has a 22AC while swinging a maul, when she hits 6th level she gets bladesinger extra attack combining an attack and magic as one action and can do it with a maul. There are other abilities she can't use, but if this is the character you want to build those other abilities she can't use are not really important anyway. If that is what you want to build, then yes you should take feats to do it. As I noted above feats are part of the wizard chassis, they are class abilities, you get them from the wizard class. If you want to play an Arcane GISH and Ranger suits you better, then play a Ranger and take magic initiate as a Ranger feat to pick up booming blade and green flame blade. What I don't get is the argument that you should not have to use a feat when other classes do. Tavern brawler is a fine feat for a strength-based bladesinger if that is what you want. It gives you proficiency in improvised weapons which you can use to make an improvised weapon attack with vials of acid, poision, oil and holy water and it gives you a bonus-action grapple after that (which can be enhanced by spells). You can attack with a vial of oil and follow up with Green-flame blade and get the extra fire damage from the oil on the same turn while also getting a free grapple. You can also use holy water or acid to stop many opponents from regenerating in the same turn you hit them with your GFB (again in addition to grappling them). With the free grapple you can position enemies so your 2nd enemy GFB damage lands more often (in addition to all the other things you can do with a grappled creature). If you add the grappler feat to this you can potentially get advantage on all of your attacks after the first improvised weapon strike, which a huge damage boost. This lasts until the enemy uses an action to TRY to break it. I am not saying that is what you should play, but if you dump W/Ch and run a 14 intelligence this will be quite a powerful melee character. I agree on the Warlock, and I have not played an Artificer, but I disagree on both the EK and the Bladesinger and if you find this to be the case I think it is because you didn't build your character out to do what you actually wanted to do and instead built to some predefined stereotype. You can play the character you claim you want to play with either of these. I will say a Bladesinger can do GISH better than an EK, and honestly better than any other build, primarily because their extra attack feature is better and they get more spells, but there is nothing saying you need to take fireball and hypnotic pattern. Take spells that identify with the GISH character you want to be. [/QUOTE]
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