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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8334038" data-attributes="member: 7030563">I respectgully disagree.  We don't play it that way at my table, but if you do at yours that is ok.There are boundaries defined by the class certainly, but IMO those boundaries are very broad and using feats gives you ample space to be well outside those stereotypes for all classes other than Warlock.  For some classes, like Rogue, you can be anything.The classes are a thing because of the mechanics.  Let me put it this way.  I could bring my character to the game and play for weeks, RAW, without you knowing if the character was a Warlock or a Wizard.  If when you did figure it out it would be because you counted number of times I said "sorcery points" or keyed in on words like "arcane recovery".Background, race or feats can do this for any class though, any character can be sneaky.  It is easier for a Rogue because parts of it (specifically expertise and for sneaky cunning action) is built in to the class without considering feats but any character class can be not jsut good but outstanding at these things.  When you consider the so called "optional rules" every class has mechanics they can use to make them outstanding.  Your barbarian can get expertise in slight of hand.  He can get expertise in stealth too and if he does those things and rolls or invests in a high dexterity he will be better than the vast majority of Rogues walking around, not better than all of them, but better than most of them.IMO, the mechanics ensure a modicum of balance, but there is no problem with ignoring the intended or stereotypical "theme"But why does that matter?  You can still use the only feature that really matters to the build (bladesinger extra attack).  With GWM your character will do A LOT more damage in melee than a "traditional" bladesinger and the tradeoff will be a slightly lower max AC (at 2nd level 2 points lower in max AC compared to a traditional bladesinger in bladesong and 1 point higher when out of bladesong).   Also compared to a "traditional" bladesinger you can dump intelligence and bump constitution to make up for the slight AC difference.I get that they are abilities you can't use, but they are abilities you don't need with your build either, so why does it matter?We had a Rogue who played in my group several years ago and she found a girdle of giant strangth and a lengendary warpick and she stopped using finesse weapons once that happened.  Now that is a bit unfair because it was not part of the original build theme but we had fun and she did more damage then if she had kept using her short sword.The bladesinger is different than this Rogue example though.  There is a huge mechanical advantage to sneak attack so there is a big opportunity cost to not using it. There is no equivalent penalty to not using bladesong if you equip armor and use a great weapon.A bladesinger not using bladesong because she is in half-plate is the equivalent of a battlemaster not using his artisans tool proficiency.  They have that ability, but it is a ribbon feature on that particular build.   Now if that battlemaster was a high-wisdom, high-charisma guy with approriate skills who wanted to use it for whatever it would be a different story.Yeah.  You have to build the character you want to play in order to play the character you want to play.And it is not a "ton of feats", it is two feats  - medium armor proficiency and weapon master and only then if you pick a race that does not have these.  And you don't even need that feat with some races.Just to be clear - Any character that wants the GWM feat needs to take a feat to get it, so that is no different for a bladesinger.  So when you consider that, the bladesinger is exactly 1 feat behind a character of a class that comes with medium armor, if they don't choose a race that gets this for free.No.  If you want to play an arcane gish (and that term itself is debatable), then build they arcane GISH you want to play and don't worry about the abilities you are not using.If you want to play an armored GISH mixing magic and melee with his weapons it is.Going back to a fighter example - A fighter using plate and a greatsword, a battle axe and javelins is not using 97% of the weapons he is proficient in and 92% of the armor he is proficient in.Another example - a Forest Ranger who follows the party out of the forrest and into a city/desert/dungeon is not using his natural explorer ability.  He should just tell the party he can't do that because his character theme is based on being in the forrest.  Moreover he must be a Ranger because he wants to play in the forrest, he can't be a Ranger because he wants a subclass feature that gets to be invisible in darkness.Focus on the character you want to play, not the character you are not playing.  There is nothing at all weak about an armored bladesinger.  It is still a very powerful melee character.Do you honestly think it would be balanced to have a 6th-level GISH that can let loose a GWM attack with a lightning bolt kicker 3 times a day?  That is FAR more powerful than a paladin smite at 6th level.  At 11th level you can actually do this up to two times a day with a bladesinger (assuming a day of rest before adventuring), which is about right, and is STILL way ahead of a Paladin smite in terms of damage, both on that turn and throughout the day.A 12th-level Paladin going Nova can do weapon damagex2+strx2+8d8 to a single foe.  This is normal weapon damage+36 to a single foe.  He can do this on ONE turn in an entire day, every time after that turn he smites for less damage.  The second time he does this it is +31.5, the third time he does this it is +27 extra.  After the third time he does this, he has three first level smites left and at that point he is actually doing LESS damage with a "nova smite" than an 11th-level bladesinger is doing with his always on extra attack green flame blade (assuming the same weapons and ability scores).An 11th-level bladesinger using contingency and and a 5th-level lightning bolt as above could hit in a single round for weapon damageX2, +Strx2, +2d8fire, +10d6 lightning bolt.  This is 44+weapon damage in a single turn.    He also does 2d8+int to a second creature, bringing the total to about an extra 55 damage (depending on intelligence).  Further the lightning bolt can hit numerous foes, meaning 35 of this would be multiplied many times over.A Bladesinger can do this once a day every single day, or twice in one day with one day of rest beforehand.  A Paladin on a Nova turn smites ONE foe a SINGLE time for 20 less damage.  He can do it a second time for 24.5 less damage.  At this point he is 44 points behind the bladesinger for the day.  He can double smite a third time for about 7 more than a bladesinger, so he is 37 behind.  From then on the bladesinger will outrun him for the rest of the day and increase his lead  from then on.GFB combined with extra attack stacks very well compared to smite.  At level 5-10 GFB is doing more extra fire damage than a smite using a first level spell slot and can do that extra damage all day.  At level 11th it is doing more extra than a 3rd level smite.  Comparing Green Flame Blade to smite (assumes 14 intelligence, identical strength and weapons, using attack+GFB and smite+smite where 2 attacks take place):level 1: GFB 2 moreLevel 4: Smite 7 more 3 times a day.  Paladin attack is 2 less every other attack for the daylevel 6: Smite is doing 16 more on 1 turn, 7 more on 2 turns, after 3rd turn it is 11 less for the rest of the dayLevel 11: Smite is doing 16 more on 1 turn, 11.5 more on 1 turn, 7 more on 1 turn, 2 less while still smiting for 2 turns, Paladin doing 20 less per turn for the rest of the daySo in terms of damage the Paladin using smite will be beating the bladesinger by a maximum of about 16 damage and beating him in damage for 4 turns or so the entire adventuring day at most levels.  It varies and is more than that at level 5 and 10, less than that at most other levels.Now there is a lot of caveats to all that in terms of positioning, damage resistance, using smite on hits only and exactly which level you are talking about, but on the other hand it is also with a relatively low intelligence and using no damage-boosting spells (which a GISH themed character should be doing).  The point is; with the exception of level 5, the bladesinger using just GFB and extra attack is doing consistently more total damage on the entire day and doing more after just a few nova turns by the Paladin which are overcome probably by the 2nd battle.   What is also abundantly clear, is that a character regularly throwing fireballs on top of that damage is not anywhere near a Paladin or any other class in 5E for that matter.  You are playing an entirely different game at that point.</blockquote>

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