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Giving the arcane gish an identity.
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<blockquote data-quote="TheOneGargoyle" data-source="post: 8355272" data-attributes="member: 6924207"><p>Overall feedback before specifics:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">OMG. SO MUCH <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="🥰" title="Smiling face with hearts :smiling_face_with_3_hearts:" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f970.png" data-shortname=":smiling_face_with_3_hearts:" /> for writing this up !! You rock <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Happy with the name and overall approach and it's certainly nice to have a detailed class write-up to critique.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I would prefer a different term to "Mystic" as to me this has connotations more of the priestly side than the arcane/wizard side. Arcane Tradition, School, Arcane Path, Eldritch Technique, etc etc or anything like that I think would be more thematic. Not a dealbreaker tho IMHO.</li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p>To me, I think there's a conversation to be had about HD (d8 / d10), Armor (Light/Medium/Shields) and Weapons (Simple/Martial).</p><p></p><p>Certainly paladin & ranger are up the 'fighter' end of these, with both having d10 HD, Martial weapons and Medium/Heavy armor & shields. Just because they do though, I'm not 100% sure that the Gish should, because wizards come from such a lower base. I also think of them somewhere between EK and bladesinger. I'll explain:</p><p></p><p>My starting point for this has been that the 'hybrid' classes (if it's ok to call them that) should fall somewhere between their two parent classes but at a minimum a step up from the lower one. Here's my worked examples:</p><p><strong>Paladin: </strong>Fighter has d10 and cleric has d8, and there's no d9, so we round up to d10. Fighter has heavy armor + shields and cleric has medium + shields (but some domains get heavy) so the hybrid gets heavy + shields. Fighter gets martial weapons, cleric gets simple, so the hybrid gets martial.</p><p><strong>Ranger:</strong> Fighter has d10 and druid has d8, and there's no d9, so we round up to d10. Fighter has heavy armor + shields and druid has medium + shields (but no metal) so the hybrid gets medium + shields (but without the no metal restriction). Fighter gets martial weapons, druid gets a specific limited list (some simple, some martial), so the hybrid gets martial.</p><p><strong>Gish: </strong>Fighter has d10 and wizard has d6, so the hybrid gets d8. Fighter has heavy armor + shields and wizard has none, so the hybrid gets somewhere in between, maybe the base class gets light, and some subclasses get medium + shields. Fighter gets martial weapons, wizard gets an extremely limited list, so the hybrid gets somewhere in between, maybe the base class gets simple at L1 and then martial at L3, or subclasses grant different specific proficiencies, or maybe it's simple + one or more specific choices (like bladesinger).</p><p></p><p>So that's how I've been approaching it, which is why I'm thinking they might not necessarily need to get d10, heavy+shields & martial weapons, but can still be significantly better in melee than normal wizards, and a bit better than bladesingers, but not as good as EKs. This could be a good balancing factor for wizard spells being strong, and also allow unarmored / lightly armoured builds that either use Int bonus to AC, or enhanced mage armour, or light armour, or whatever, while still allowing some subclasses to be more heavily armoured for the more traditional githyanki gish style build.</p><p></p><p>What do you think ?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I would tend to go for a prepared spell model like the wizard and artificer (& even the paladin). To me this is more thematic for a magic-heavy character, obv not quite as much as a primary caster, but it's still core class concept.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think a good conversation to have is whether the Archetype needs to kick in at L1, 2 or 3. I don't have a firm view of this but I would think that in order to be at L1 it should have a really good reason why it needs to be L1 like cleric does. What do you think in this case ?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Love these.</p><p></p><p>Love this.</p><p></p><p>I like this as one possible idea, but I'm not sure that it should be all builds, maybe one subclass has this ?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think an excellent conversation is whether to do Extra Attack + War Magic or the Bladesinger version of Extra Attack (sub 1 for a cantrip). I think it's a no-brainer that it needs one or the other, so the germaine question is, which one ?</p><p></p><p>The EK Extra Attack + War Magic enables easier weaponisation of the BA, which is good for fighters, but I think Gish's will have a much higher level of contention for doing magical things with their BA. So I'd much prefer the bladesinger version of Extra Attack, I think it's a more elegant way of doing it, and explicitly supports a mixing weapon attacks with spells in the same action, which I think is exactly what we're asking for. I'm aware that it's stronger than the EK one though - truth be told I wouldn't object to retro-fitting the bladesinger EA to EK instead of their War Magic, but that's a separate conversation.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Love these !! <3</p><p></p><p>Love these !</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think you've done a great job here mate ! Well done <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TheOneGargoyle, post: 8355272, member: 6924207"] Overall feedback before specifics: [LIST] [*]OMG. SO MUCH 🥰 for writing this up !! You rock :) [*]Happy with the name and overall approach and it's certainly nice to have a detailed class write-up to critique. [*]I would prefer a different term to "Mystic" as to me this has connotations more of the priestly side than the arcane/wizard side. Arcane Tradition, School, Arcane Path, Eldritch Technique, etc etc or anything like that I think would be more thematic. Not a dealbreaker tho IMHO. [/LIST] To me, I think there's a conversation to be had about HD (d8 / d10), Armor (Light/Medium/Shields) and Weapons (Simple/Martial). Certainly paladin & ranger are up the 'fighter' end of these, with both having d10 HD, Martial weapons and Medium/Heavy armor & shields. Just because they do though, I'm not 100% sure that the Gish should, because wizards come from such a lower base. I also think of them somewhere between EK and bladesinger. I'll explain: My starting point for this has been that the 'hybrid' classes (if it's ok to call them that) should fall somewhere between their two parent classes but at a minimum a step up from the lower one. Here's my worked examples: [B]Paladin: [/B]Fighter has d10 and cleric has d8, and there's no d9, so we round up to d10. Fighter has heavy armor + shields and cleric has medium + shields (but some domains get heavy) so the hybrid gets heavy + shields. Fighter gets martial weapons, cleric gets simple, so the hybrid gets martial. [B]Ranger:[/B] Fighter has d10 and druid has d8, and there's no d9, so we round up to d10. Fighter has heavy armor + shields and druid has medium + shields (but no metal) so the hybrid gets medium + shields (but without the no metal restriction). Fighter gets martial weapons, druid gets a specific limited list (some simple, some martial), so the hybrid gets martial. [B]Gish: [/B]Fighter has d10 and wizard has d6, so the hybrid gets d8. Fighter has heavy armor + shields and wizard has none, so the hybrid gets somewhere in between, maybe the base class gets light, and some subclasses get medium + shields. Fighter gets martial weapons, wizard gets an extremely limited list, so the hybrid gets somewhere in between, maybe the base class gets simple at L1 and then martial at L3, or subclasses grant different specific proficiencies, or maybe it's simple + one or more specific choices (like bladesinger). So that's how I've been approaching it, which is why I'm thinking they might not necessarily need to get d10, heavy+shields & martial weapons, but can still be significantly better in melee than normal wizards, and a bit better than bladesingers, but not as good as EKs. This could be a good balancing factor for wizard spells being strong, and also allow unarmored / lightly armoured builds that either use Int bonus to AC, or enhanced mage armour, or light armour, or whatever, while still allowing some subclasses to be more heavily armoured for the more traditional githyanki gish style build. What do you think ? I would tend to go for a prepared spell model like the wizard and artificer (& even the paladin). To me this is more thematic for a magic-heavy character, obv not quite as much as a primary caster, but it's still core class concept. I think a good conversation to have is whether the Archetype needs to kick in at L1, 2 or 3. I don't have a firm view of this but I would think that in order to be at L1 it should have a really good reason why it needs to be L1 like cleric does. What do you think in this case ? Love these. Love this. I like this as one possible idea, but I'm not sure that it should be all builds, maybe one subclass has this ? I think an excellent conversation is whether to do Extra Attack + War Magic or the Bladesinger version of Extra Attack (sub 1 for a cantrip). I think it's a no-brainer that it needs one or the other, so the germaine question is, which one ? The EK Extra Attack + War Magic enables easier weaponisation of the BA, which is good for fighters, but I think Gish's will have a much higher level of contention for doing magical things with their BA. So I'd much prefer the bladesinger version of Extra Attack, I think it's a more elegant way of doing it, and explicitly supports a mixing weapon attacks with spells in the same action, which I think is exactly what we're asking for. I'm aware that it's stronger than the EK one though - truth be told I wouldn't object to retro-fitting the bladesinger EA to EK instead of their War Magic, but that's a separate conversation. Love these !! <3 Love these ! I think you've done a great job here mate ! Well done :) [/QUOTE]
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