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Message: <blockquote data-quote="TheOneGargoyle" data-source="post: 8356007" data-attributes="member: 6924207">Absolutely, much easier to discuss specifics.  Plus I think we've pontificated enough about the need for it and some generalities, that it's reasonable to proceed to proposing some details that we can thrash out.I'd be fine with thatI'm not expecting complete balance at this stage of the design process, I would assume we would do a final balance pass at the end to tweak the overall package, but I would like to see us keep two things on the table: 1) d10/heavy/martial is a huge step up from wizard whereas it's not such a big step up from cleric & druid, so it counts for much more when balancing things, and 2) I've seen more examples for this style of play that are lightly armored and unarmored than in medium/heavy armor, so I'd love the class to support both playstyles as options.I guess I was going for maintaining the 'wizardy' feeling which to me feels more prepping.  I could go either way I guess.Good point.  I agree there seems like there might be a higher degree of difference between playstyles of subclasses than with some other classes. So then perhaps we do have the archetype kick in at L1 but keep medium/heavy armor and certain weapon options in the subclasses, that way you don't have to change equipment types at higher levels, but it still supports a range of build options, including builds without those.That sounds good.Since they're not getting Action Surge and can't do both of those in a round, that might work.  Personally I'd be happy to just start with the SCAG cantrips as written, and add a few more similar ones later on as needed.  We'd need to look at the numbers though.I honestly don't think we need that many.  I was thinking we would start with the Artificer / Battle Smith list and modify from there.  It's got most of the spells I think would be needed, we remove all the healing & revivify spells, and spells that are artificer themed like caustic brew, summon construct, and any others we think just aren't appropriate etc.  Once we've done, we've got a pretty solid base already, we just have to add a few to fill specific gaps.Credit where it's due man - you've put some serious work into this <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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