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<blockquote data-quote="Sagiro" data-source="post: 2368637" data-attributes="member: 726">Piratecat, I'm inclined to agree with you about spellcasting to a point -- that avg. intelligence creatures won't instinctively know that the rat casting the fireball is actually an illuision.&nbsp; It could be any number of things:&nbsp; a polymorphed spellcaster, someone invisible or hidden who's standing next to the rat, or even a new breed of nasty spell-casting cave rat!&nbsp; However, I think getting hit with a fireball seemingly cast by a rat counts as &quot;interaction,&quot; and allows a will save just as would getting it with a sword.Also:&nbsp; the canonical &quot;illusionary wall&quot; example, like all examples I've even seen of &quot;provably false&quot; illusions, is a figment.&nbsp; Glamers are a different animal, and I wonder at what point one's interaction with a glamered creature rises to the same standard.&nbsp;&nbsp; If a giant swings a club down at a cave rat, and the club strikes something solid five feet off the ground, with a &quot;clank&quot; sound indiciative of club-struck armor, is that &quot;proof?&quot;&nbsp; What about if the giant, made suspicious at the very least, gropes in the air above the rat and feels a clearly humanoid figure there?&nbsp; What if it spots blood dripping out of the air four feet above the rat?I think I'd lean toward making &quot;proof&quot; a difficult standard to meet, but allow a new will save each time that the giant's suspicions are provoked, with increasing bonuses due to a growing preponderance of evidence.&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;Proof&quot; might come if, for instance, one of the rats started a grapple.-Sagiro</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sagiro, post: 2368637, member: 726"] Piratecat, I'm inclined to agree with you about spellcasting to a point -- that avg. intelligence creatures won't instinctively know that the rat casting the [i]fireball[/i] is actually an illuision. It could be any number of things: a polymorphed spellcaster, someone invisible or hidden who's standing next to the rat, or even a new breed of nasty spell-casting cave rat! However, I think getting hit with a fireball [i]seemingly[/i] cast by a rat counts as "interaction," and allows a will save just as would getting it with a sword. Also: the canonical "illusionary wall" example, like all examples I've even seen of "provably false" illusions, is a figment. Glamers are a different animal, and I wonder at what point one's interaction with a glamered creature rises to the same standard. If a giant swings a club down at a cave rat, and the club strikes something solid five feet off the ground, with a "clank" sound indiciative of club-struck armor, is that "proof?" What about if the giant, made suspicious at the very least, gropes in the air above the rat and feels a clearly humanoid figure there? What if it spots blood dripping out of the air four feet above the rat? I think I'd lean toward making "proof" a difficult standard to meet, but allow a new will save each time that the giant's suspicions are provoked, with increasing bonuses due to a growing preponderance of evidence. "Proof" might come if, for instance, one of the rats started a grapple. -Sagiro [/QUOTE]

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