Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Enchanted Trinkets Complete--a hardcover book containing over 500 magic items for your D&D games!

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Graf" data-source="post: 2373490" data-attributes="member: 3087">Feels a bit weird posting responses to much more experienced DMs. (I am, btw, a DM 90% of the time and focus almost entirely on being one. I also tend to think that people make too much of a big deal out of how powerful illusions are).I think that illusions are just another kind of spell (i.e. that there shouldn't be some special kind of "because they are illusions what they can do should be limited in a way that other spells aren't" rule about them). Obviously YMMV.As a general rule I tend to look at five things when deciding incidental/vague/debatable spell effects1. What level is the spell?2. How powerful is the effect vs. the other things the spell can do3. Does the effect, even if logical, seem more like a separate spell?4. Does the spells description suggest that such an effect would exist or is it simple and extrapolation?5. Is the existence of this effect (or its lack) going to have an impact on the world around them. A good example (and one I used when I explained that I wasn't going to have long "logical" conversations about how spells worked with the players): There was a picture, in 2nd ed Dragon magazine article about inventive uses for magic, I think, of a wizard who was climbing up a wall (using spider climb) and using his sticky fingers to pilfer a small orb from an open window. Applying the test above to the question of "does spider climb allow you to pick stuff up (or hold onto it) better?" I would see the following1. Spider climb is 2nd level (it was first when I actually made the ruling in a game)2. Spider climb is a strong spell. While the target's hands are probably adhesive in some fashion while under the effects of the spell giving the spell additional adhesive effects (beyond those listed in the description) isn't really warranted for a 2nd level spell. (i.e. a bonus to slight of hand checks or resist a disarm wouldn't be warranted in my mind)3. Yes a spell or even a cantrip like "Sticky Fingers" springs easily to mind and would be different enough from Spider Climb to count as its own spell.4. Nope5. Yes it would have an impact on the world. Spider climb is a relatively cheap spell, and even a +2 bonus could be important to someone. Gladiators would have it cast on them going into battle (or gloves that gave them similar holding properties), better pickpockets would arrage to get it before plying their trade etc. None of those changes are good or interesting (to me).I would rephrase the Sagiro’s question as:"Does veil require an armed party attempting to enter an area with hostile humanoids to jump through lots of hoops in order for it to continue to cloak their identities?"Specifically to apply the "spell test above" I would say1. Veil is a high level illusion spell (6th?). It is the best spell of its class in the game.2. Veil's primary function is to hide the identities of its targets, the spell description seems to suggest that it is through (covering multiple senses) and effective, with no chance given to see through the spell under normal circumstances. This is in line with spells of 6th level (given that invisibility mass is lower level I would want it to do things for the caster and the party that invisibility does not). Particularly invisibility hides the existence of its targets completely and grants significant advantages (initially at least in combat) it seems like veil should be better at what it does (i.e. hide your identity).3. No. Unless it would be Improved Veil or something similar.4. Nothing in the description seems to suggest that you need to act oddly for it to work. (i.e. no requirements that people make performance checks to seem like what they are pretending to be, which is basically what walking around on your hands and knees and "acting like a rat" would be). Disguise checks are standard for "duplication of specific creature tests" and made by the caster anyway.5. Veil not working without lots of acting basically means that no one would take or use the spell for its purpose (allowing armed groups of people to get places they normally couldn't). Not really a big impact on the world but if the spell exists then I tend to presume it works as advertised.So I would say that the more liberal set of interpretations apply, weaponry is not revealed, etc. Until combat starts they look just like a small pack of aggressive, organized rats. If a character climbs a rope and someone sees them it looks like a rat climbed the rope. If a character attacks someone attacks with a sword then it looks like the rat jumped at them (because it doesn't hide actions so the fact that the rat acted against the target would be clear) and now they have a big bleeding slash wound. Likewise my understanding of spells in DnD is that any spell cast comes from the caster and affects the target is obvious. [With a small exception for victims of charm spells get a bit of a “whammy” effect that prevents them from holding the casting of a spell on them against the caster, basically because I feel it would conflict with #5 above.]Having said that veiling yourself to look like a pack of rats is not a hot idea. Unless you make successful hide and MS checks you will be noticed. So anyone that gets into visual range of the characters (remember they aren't rat sized so they can't actually crawl through cracks in the walls, under tables, etc) will notice them. They still fill one map square for every small or medium sized creature. A bunch of bold rats hanging out in a hallway is the kind of thing that is usually dealt with quickly. I.e. somebody gets a torch and tries to scare them off or kill them. In other words: the first person they encounter, and every other person (unless this is a temple to a rat god) is going to notice them and attempt to deal with them, complain about them to somebody, try to step on them, etc.Since the characters are not "stompable" very quickly it becomes apparent that these rats are not "normal" rats. Ditto when a rat leaps on up a doorknob, turns it and then jumps back down. It looks -just- like a rat opened the door and I wouldn't take that away from the party, but the rat still opened the door.In normal DnD this leads very quickly to the realization that these are "special magic rats".The discovery of special magical anything in a camp or whatever of intelligent armed creatures in DnD leads very quickly to a general alarm being raised.This doesn't mean that people are seeing rats with swords, or carrying wands or hearing rats make spellcasting sounds. They may know that the "frothing brown one*" has been hit by a dozen blows but is still moving around leaving hideous slashing wounds in it's wake but unless they start making saving throws they won't see anything that breaks the illusion of it being a rat (i.e. nothing that would indicate it's really a 6.5 foot tall dual-weilding northman with twin battle axes). *=Since nothing really suggests that veil would make one affected target look exactly like another affected target I would assume that they could be differentiated by onlookers (with a wizard wanting everyone to look like copies of a specific rat having to make disguise checks for each individual to make them "match" the others).So I would say: relax and have fun with it!Not to sound dismissive but DMs changing the way spells work because they are afraid of the ramifications is one of the biggest problems in DnD games. The spells generally work as they are supposed to. If a spell is designed to make a bunch of people look like some other bunch of creatures then they look like that other bunch of creatures. Unless it says "they have to act just a creature would act in that situation or else the spell stops functioning" or the DM has some kind of deeply held opinion about how the spell is overpowered/unbalancing for its level (and the players agree to have the spell changed to maintain verisimilitude) I would let it function as described. If it has a duration then the spell continues to work without the wizard having to concentrate, etc.Bonus opinionThe tennis racket question is a good one. Honestly, for a sixth level spell that has no combat impact I would say "they look like whatever damn sort of tennis rackets the caster wants". If s/he wants floating the rackets float, if s/he wants dragging they drag (complete with the sound of dragging), they could move around like something from fantasia, or else grow arms and legs to facilitate their activities (complete with eyes and a mouth on the head of the racket). And if they stopped moving they would look -just- like tennis rackets lying on the ground or propped against a wall if that was what the caster had originally intended.Bonus opinion #2If the players want to avoid arousing suspicion and actually get further than a room or two into the complex they are better off doing some research and pretending to be something that would naturally be in the area (i.e. if they are invading the inner sanctum of the purple eye then a bunch of purple robed cultists (maybe with a tongues spell to fake any language requirements and charm and detect thoughts to deal with any questions)) is going to get you a lot further than something like a rat.Feels a bit weird posting responses to much more experienced DMs. (I am, btw, a DM 90% of the time and focus almost entirely on being one. I also tend to think that people make too much of a big deal out of how powerful illusions are).edit: weird double posting</blockquote>

Verification