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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sagiro" data-source="post: 2375666" data-attributes="member: 726">Graf, I appreciate your opinions -- and even if I am a "more experienced DM" (which may not even be the case), it doesn't make them more or less valid.  As I read your comments, I found myself agreeing with some and disagreeing with others.  For instance, while I agree that DM's should not change the way spells work because they don't like the ramifications, they should also not add things to spell descriptions that aren't there, just to make them work more like how they think they should.  The important lines of veil are:  You can make the subjects appear to be anything you wish. The subjects look, feel, and smell just like the creatures the spell makes them resemble..I don't see anything here that makes me think that veil will provide additional powers to cover for characters acting in ways that are at odds with how they "look, feel and smell."For instance, if a PC disguised as a cave rat picks up a 20' long pole and pokes someone with it, an observer is going to see something very strange:  to wit, a small rat picking up something much to heavy for it, and making a very un-ratlike poking motion.  Another example:  the same PC walks up to a tall elf, puts one hand on the elf's head, and ther other on the elf's ankle.  What does the elf see?  A super-stretchy rat?  I don't think so.  I think he sees a rat stretching its little paws out, and he feels rat paws on his head and ankle, but he sees that the rat's paws aren't actually touching him.Put another way:  If someone is disguised by a glamer, it will work fine as long as that someone does things that the illusionary form could also do.  No need to walk on all fours; if a rat can walk, then you can walk and look/feel/smell like rat walking.  If a rat can make an unarmed attack, you can make one too, and look/feel/smell like a rat swiping you with its claw.   But a rat can't wield a pole-axe, so if you try that, it's going to look very un-rat-like by definition.   I don't see anything about the spell that makes me think that, if I as the rat never make physical contact with you (because I'm wielding a pole-axe), the illusion "covers for me" and makes it look like I ran up and swatted you.  Likewise, if you leap for a dangling rope hanging 8' off the ground, you're going to look like the all-time high-jump rat champion of the universe.  The glamer isn't going to somehow provide extra mojo to make that look natural.  I agree with you, that once the person grabs the rope and starts climbing, he'll look more natural -- since a rat can also climb a rope.  Those, to me, are the sensible consequences of assuming a glamer that's very unlike your own form.   You'll be more limited in the things you can do and still maintain believability.As for veil being a 6th level spell, and as such a powerful glamer:  that's because a) it can make targets look like anything you wish, b) it can affect as many targets as you can fit into a 15'-radius circle, and c) it lasts hours and hours and possibly days if the caster can keep concentrating.    And not, in my opinion, d) because it can cover for action-generated cognitive dissonance.All just my opinions, of course.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />-Sagiro</blockquote>

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