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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Graf" data-source="post: 2379192" data-attributes="member: 3087">(I hope this is useful and not disruptive)One general comment.None of my comments above were intended to imply that there is some kind of charm, etc. effect, woven into illusions that makes subjects of illusions happy or comfortable with what they are perceiving.So I am in agreement with you (visa vie what I think you are saying) on a lot of the points above. For example>and not d) because it can cover for action-generated >cognitive dissonance.The cognitive dissonance is in full bloom as the rat jumps 10 feet into the air, or picks up a huge polearm of the ground in its teeth and then smacks them over the head with it. Some days I get congnitive dissonace turning on the TV.If that statement is supposed to imply that because a creature looks at an illusion and thinks "that's not supposed to happen" that there is some kind of automatic illusion-nullifying effect -> they start to see through the parts of the illusion that the character would not believe (i.e. that the battle ax would start hanging over the head of the character where the character's real hands are, etc) then I think that that is unfair to the player and makes it hard for people to play the game with confidence.For me the cognitive dissonance is reflected in a save. You fail the save and your mind does not get to resolve itself by breaking free of the magic to show you the truth. You're stuck working off the "bad data" the caster has decided to feed you. In the case of veil you receive no sensory information about the true appearance (smell, texture, etc) of the creature.If someone does something that would not be possible for a normal rat then the spell adapts in some fashion that1. Transmits all pertinent information to the outside world (which is a bit of a gray area I admit, but since you don't generally have to explain what every monster is seeing to the PCs its fine to leave it a bit gray)2. Continues to screen out any information that is not necessary to perceive the action.So if some idiot under the effects of a veil that makes them look like a rat reaches out and touches some 6 foot tall person's heel and head at the same time then the person touched gets a save. If they fail they don't get any new info, but the spell does show a rat stretching out in an absurd fashion (or something similar).[Making the little rat do the motion and then feel only the pressure raises a problem for me. The hand on the head is effectively invisible. If that were a fist, then the target wouldn't know it would be coming. Normally in unpercived attack gets lots of bonuses (i.e. invisibility spell). Since viel doesn't provide that I would say that the spell holds, because it doesn't indicate anywhere in the spell that it can be broken by actions, but that the spell warps what is being seen to provide enough information that the target, while confused, is never the less aware that it is being attacked, by a "rat" using its body, and the vector of the attack so that it can defend itself normally.]As a player I know that I would prefer a spell that basically renders all my actions unobservable would be much better than one that makes it clear what I was doing, roughly how I was doing it and so on. So I see this function as Veil -not- doing something that would be more powerful (i.e. covering up the source of actions) instead of doing something (i.e. making the rat image change an appear different than it did before).>The glamer isn't going to somehow provide extra mojo to >make that look natural. Honestly these kinds of explanations for nerfing spells make me crazy.In Core DnD a human monk can make a 20ft standing leap straight up. A human with a jump spell (potion, scroll, etc) can do the same. While the number of effects that can be generated by a given player character are limited the kinds of things that can happen in the world are literally unlimited. Stars can (and from time to time are) torn from the sky and used to shatter the earth, portals open and uncountable demons pour through, creatures whose physiognomy would be completely impossible in the "natural" world lounge about with reckless disregard for the feelings of the authors of biology and physics textbooks.At least once a session someone says to me (something like)"Wait? He's got an eye where?!?" and I say "Yeah, it looks weird. But that's what it looks like."So I'm inclined to say that illusions just work regardless of what a given orc in a given room is used to seeing on a given day.What did that orc see when the monk (glamoured to appear like a rat) drove one sandal down onto his foot and pivoted to slam the other into his face?Well..., he's unconcious. But if you woke him up he would tell that it was one weeeiird looking rat.</blockquote>

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