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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 2379306" data-attributes="member: 16814">First, respect and gratitude to two great SH GMs and thier players.I would agree with this caveat:  the fantasy world is already an awfully strange place.  Most creatures and/or people have encountered fantastic effects in thier lives.  Some even survive.  These tell others stories about the purple spotted blue whale that flew over thier hut/cave during a freak storm of toads and asked for a cup of sugar.  While having a rat jump vertically 4' and begin to climb a rope is suspicious, it is not automatically outside the bounds of belief.  Nor is the same rat picking up a pole axe and laying out the whup@ss.  These things may indeed be the powers of some new breed of uber rat.  One that should be exterminated with due haste.  Like now.  My point is that while these actions are definately not those of your common garden rat, they are not outside the bounds of reality as it exists in a fantasty universe.  The jumping rat should raise suspicion, but not grant a save.  This behavior is odd, but not impossible.  A four foot jump is only DC 32 (did I say ONLY???) from a standing leap, and a jump spell of sufficient level could account for this easily.  Weilding a pole axe is exceptionally odd and should cause general head shaking and eye rubbing, a great indicator that a save is taking place.  I wouldn't allow a bonus on this save, because it possible the rat is just that Bruce Lee cool.  The power of the veil spell (minimum save DC 19) means that it is attempting to cover the most egregeous(sp?) logical dissonances as best it can, providing the necessary effects to promote vesimilitude.  The save is indicator of how well it does that.  Bonuses applied to saves against illusions should only be awarded in situations where there is almost no other believable explanation available to the affected creature.  Only truly outlandish situations should qualify:  Your friend walking through a solid wall like its not there; Your favorite childhood pet showing up on your doorstep even though you know for a fact that you sacrified it to the dark gods and they don't ever let things come back;  Not having your luggage lost when you travel by lightning rail; et cetera.  Being attacked by an invisible sword while a rat makes swinging motions nearby would lead me to believe that an invisible attacker is attempting to distract me with an outlandish illusion of a rat, not that the rat is really attacking me with an invisible sword.  At least, if I failed my save.  For which I should not get a bonus on because the action can be accounted for in other, easier ways.  Veil is a powerful spell.  Let it be powerful.  If your players insist on actions that are difficult to attribute to normal rats, then let the guards/whatever react to the strange rat behavior.  Personally, if I saw a rat jump straight up four feet and climb a rope, I would leave the premisis post haste.  If I were tasked to guard said location, I would call someone over to help kill the freaky rat.  If it hissed and swiped at me and I developed a sudden case of sword wound fever, I would run screaming like a little girl, raise the alarm, and put out the word that all rats are to be killed on sight.  Provided I failed my save.  Which I will.  Really.  D20's hate me.</blockquote>

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