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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9622981" data-attributes="member: 42582">To me it seems utterly pedantic, and pointless. Particularly as I think the only reason [USER=6785785]@hawkeyefan[/USER] was talking about "narrative" was because you introduced that term into the conversation.I don't understand: why could a player not say that? It's not against the law. They're (presumably) not gagged by the GM.Do you mean, the player can say it but the GM will ignore it?Really? Always?Suppose that the PCs are journeying, and the game is played in the style of D&D or Rolemaster c 1988. So the GM rolls a random encounter - the PCs are assaulted by bandits. A fight ensues, and the PCs are victorious. Now one of the players, reflecting on the fact that the PCs are journeying to assault a black dragon in its lair, thinks that it might be handy to have a spare pair of boots, in the event that there are problems with swamps or acid or both. And so the player declares "I (as my PC) search the defeated bandits - does any of them have a pair of boots that will fit me?"In my experience, the GM will not know the answer to this question in advance. So a decision has to be made by the GM. One option is for the GM to say yes: "You find one pair of boots that is a good fit." This is an example of the player "altering things" in the setting/narrative outside their character - the player's question prompts the GM to make a decision about the bandit's footwear that had not previously been made.What meaningful choice did this remove? I mean, it obviates the need for the player to declare that their PC goes to a town and visits a boot-maker. But that's true of anything at all - eg the PCs finding some treasure on the bandits obviates the need for the players to declare that their PCs get work as labourers in order to earn some money. The GM having a NPC approach the PCs and offer them payment to perform a task - a pretty common "adventure hook" technique - obviates any need for the players to declare that their PCs go up to someone and ask them for a job.So I am not seeing the removal of the meaningful choice in the bandit case.I guess my question is that you present "maybe" and "more likely" and "that is how they would" and "the NPC's knowledge" as if these are external things, that operate as constraints. But they are not. An answer has to be reached, somehow, about which possibility is the one that actually becomes part of the fiction.And as I've posted repeatedly upthread, the upshot of those ground rules and procedures and "some kind of roll" is a procedure broadly analogous to Torchbearer's.Which could then be built into the spell rules.I mean, it's not foreign for 5e D&D spells to include mechanical information. The <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2201-pass-without-trace?" target="_blank">old version of Pass Without Trace</a> says, "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection", while <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2618849-pass-without-trace" target="_blank">the new version</a> says "You radiate a concealing aura". But both than go on to say that this grants the masked/concealed characters a +10 bonus to DEX (Stealth) checks.So Alarm could similarly refer to warding a place, no larger than a 20' cube, raising the DEX (Stealth) DC to sneak into the place by 10. If the NPC assassin has knowledge of magic then that can be applied via the standard skill augment rules (whatever those happen to be for the GM in question - 5e D&D is a bit ad hoc in that respect, I think). The benefits of using a ranged attack then simply get bundled into the benefits that confers on a DEX (Stealth) test, compared to attacking from melee distance.The changes/additions I've just described wouldn't deal with the issues around timing (for casting, and for warding duration), but would deal with the issues around precise tracking of distances down to the last inch.So why not express the spell's effect by reference to the surprise rules, initiative rules, etc? As I've just posted, it's not as if D&D 5e resolutely refuses to incorporate mechanics into its spell effect rules.</blockquote>

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