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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 9628209" data-attributes="member: 23751">No.  That doesn't mean that they stand in opposition, though. Different =/= opposing one another.There is no discovery. The one player created it and presented it to the group.  If you have been working on the mystery of the who Jack the Ripper is and you show me your clues/evidence, I didn't discover those things.No.  Like I said, other people read and respond and several people here keep twisting what we say if we don't keep repeating that.  If you want me to stop, send PMs to the guys who keep saying that we think our way is better and ask them to stop.  If they stop, there's no reason for me to keep repeating myself.It's not your fault, but I have to repeat myself in my posted responses to people.Feelings can be wrong.  Something that is 0 steps removed from how it's done in real life cannot be farther away from how it's done in real life than something that is more than 0 steps removed from how it's done in real life.   You can feel that it is, but your feelings won't make it so.Yeah.  I've gathered that. It's not 100% created, but the solution will be.  It's certainly closer to the way it's done in real life than a system that involved the creation of the clues as well. It's a middle ground method of mystery solving.Not exactly. First, players are very inventive. They can figure out ways to get clues, even ones the DM didn't consider(Because DMs are not omniscient), through their actions.  They might do something that causes the DM to think, "Would that find a clue, and if so, what form would it take?"  If the answer is yes, they didn't create it, but their actions did prompt the DM to do so. Sometimes it's possible and the DM might roll to determine if there is a clue or not.  And yes, I know, that particular clue was not pre-determined, but is based solely on things that were pre-determined.  It's formed from pre-established in-fiction logic.Second, many, if not most real life mysteries have people who know the answer to them. Unfortunately, who robbed or killed is known to the robber or killer, and that stuff happens many times daily.  The DM knowing is no different than the thief or murderer knowing.  Those who are not in the know are still discovering the clues and piecing them together, even if you don't feel like it in the game.It is real, because I wrote it down on a piece of paper and the paper with the information is real.  It's still fictional, but it has a reality that can be shown.Nah.  I can stick a toy boat in a tub and make waves. That simulates(very poorly) a real boat in bad weather.  We do in fact create simulations, however good or poor they may be. If I have set up a process for it, even if I'm tracking the process in my head, it's still a simulated process for the real thing.</blockquote>

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