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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 9629370" data-attributes="member: 6785785">But you’re talking to experienced RPGers here. So I don’t think words like organic and intuitive are helping at all. We all know what goes on at the table. So when we’re talking about comparisons or we’re trying to work out what makes something work, it helps to get specific. There’s a conversation going on at the table. The players declare actions, the GM has the game world respond accordingly, calling on the game’s mechanics as needed. This is pretty much the default expectation for an RPG. So, with that in mind… what else is happening at the table that you’re citing here? What more is happening that you think I’m leaving out? Well, having played in tons of games of the kind you’re describing, and having GMed that way for decades myself, I feel very comfortable that I understand traditional play. I looked at my games and the way they worked and I really examined what was happening. It wasn’t always an easy thing to do. I had to discard all the metaphor and flowery language to look at the actual structure and processes of play. And there was absolutely stuff going on that if you’d asked me prior, I would have adamantly and genuinely denied. So this is why I’ve described it as a puzzle. I absolutely get the appeal of that. To come up with the solution and be “right”.However when it comes to the experiential quality… of it feeling more like a mystery, I think that’s subjective. To me, it seems that you aren’t differentiating here between what is objective and subjective. Just as you switch between character and player when discussing this stuff. And I think that’s what causes the bulk of the disagreement.As to what it has to do with simulationism, as I said, the blurring of lines between make believe and game process is similar to the mistake that most simulationists make.</blockquote>

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