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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 9630132" data-attributes="member: 6785785">I think each of us made our point, we just continued to restate it. I understand what you're talking about when you say your players are solving an objective mystery. I don't think that's the best choice of words, and I've said why, but I absolutely understand the idea of "figuring it out". It's why I compared it to a puzzle and also to a dungeon crawl. The challenge is set before play, and then we play to see if we can beat the challenge. I absolutely get that type of play. I was trying to separate the experience and the process... I don't think that distinction matters as much to you. I think I'm just unsure why... I don't know what it is that you think is missing when play is described about learning the things the GM has set. You say you don't like that, but it's foundational to what you're describing... so I'm at a loss. And you don't elaborate beyond it being "reductive". I'm not trying to paint your position as an extreme. I'm explaining to you how it seems to me, and how I see it as similar to the issue I have when folks talk about simulationism. I hope you see why. The blurring of experience and process... of character and player... all of that. It's common to both. And don't get me wrong... I used to do that, too. I'm guessing that's why my comments may read the way they do to you. Because, for me, to analyze and improve my play and GMing, I had to actively separate those two things. I had to set aside all the made up elements of play and focus on the process. It wasn't easy, and I had to face some hard truths about my play, but once I did, I had a better understanding of what I was doing, and how it shaped play, and how I could improve. Now, maybe you don't agree with my thoughts on the matter, and maybe even if you separated the experience and the process as I'm describing here, things would remain unchanged for you... that's totally possible, and totally acceptable. But I can't change those things for me... they were formative, and will always factor in to how I view and discuss RPGs.</blockquote>

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