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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 9636148" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Your response here is telling Boxers, Kickboxers, and Mauy Thai fighters that they're all playing the same game.  It is just preposterous Frogreaver.  You cannot possibly believe what you've put forth in this post.  There is a reason why different combat sports are demarcated by the various weaponry that they are able to deploy.  I'm sorry, I know your position desperately needs for what you're saying above to be true...but there isn't a single soul within the fight game or out of it except for Frogreaver of ENW within the terrible constraints of the argument you're trying to advance that would support this position you're taking.Kickboxing and Boxing are separated by a very small array of weaponry difference...and these are rightly categorized as different games.  What I've proposed is all three of (a) a significantly larger array of weaponry difference while (b) simultaneously folding in a Calvinball element of one combatant unilaterally changing the dynamics of play without the other combatant (i) having say in the matter and (ii) being aware of the significant shift in scope and stakes.I really hope you walk back this claim and onboard the implications into your thinking.  Because if you don't, we don't have anything further to discuss.  If we cannot agree on this most trivial matter, it is beyond worthless to waste the time doing this.Finally, your Poker analog doesn't even come close to holding here.  Hole Cards in various Poker games are subsets of "known unknowns."  Within the space of Poker, they are not just gameable elements, but highly gameable ones (actually THE most consequentially gameable ones) which the best players in the world not only take advantage of understanding the attendant permutations of prospective hands given possible subsets of Hole Cards and Face Cards showing (theirs and their respective opponents), but they know how to "lean on" their opponents with strategic betting based on all four of (i) their position in the hand, (ii) their stack in contrast with their opponents' stacks, (iii) leveraging (secretly manipulating or hewing to) historical norms in terms of betting patterns, as well as (iv) those Hole Card + Face Card permutations above.  Insofar as we can generate an analog to the fight game, Hole Cards + Position + Face Cards are more representative of your opponent’s presently unknown (but knowable) regime of future attacks in a fight, and your gameable space of detecting/intuiting that regime and then either proactively neutralizing it or setting up traps to reactively counter it.This Hole Cards dynamic isn't even close to what I'm depicting in my exercise above.  That is because what Hole Cards are not are a distorted information set that is both (i) unknowable and (ii) outside of the scope of established norms of engaging within the space to be gamed.[HR][/HR]Unrelated, if I get time in the coming days (not likely), I'm going to break down:* Position: Effect setting (which is embarassingly trivial...if you've run 5e, handling Adv/Disadv for Position should be intuitive and "adding Factors" in the BW family of games is how Effect is handled).* Info Gathering procedures, concept space, and how this transparently builds out a Score (along with each Faction's motivations, territory, roster of personnel & assets).* Procedurally how a Score is operationalized from these priors as well as "the DNA of the Score" from Apocalypse World's Working Gigs (which is literally the primordial ooze of Blade's Scores) through DW's Wizard Ritual and Paladin Quest (which share kindred process).Not wasting that effort on this thread though. I'll probably do it <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/grade-the-forged-in-the-dark-system.703431/page-15" target="_blank">here</a> as that thread seems like a repository for accumulated knowledge in understanding and operationalizing the concepts and procedures that underwrite a successful game of Blades in the Dark...vs...whatever is happening here.</blockquote>

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