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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9640634" data-attributes="member: 42582">I tend to disagree with you. That doesn't make me dishonestly reframing.To me, you sound like a phlogiston theorist of combustion complaining about dishonest reframing by oxygen theorists. I mean, if you think your account of RPGing is powerful, then present it. It will stand or fall on its merits.This is not correct, as per the post that you replied to.In Torchbearer, not all the relevant circumstances are established before a mechanical device - the Camp Event Roll - is used to work out some circumstances.What is established? How dangerous the immediate area is; whether the PCs light a fire or not; whether or not the PCs are sheltered and/or concealed; and whether or not they keep watch.What is not established? Precisely who and what is in the vicinity (this is known in general terms, which is how danger levels are established; but not precise); and thus who exactly might stumble on their camp, and exactly what the PCs might discover while camping.This split between what is, and is not, established is not uncommon in RPGing. I've posted multiple examples upthread: classic D&D wandering monster tables; and Rolemaster's encounter/evasion system.That’s not a minor implementation detail, it reflects a fundamental difference in what drives the unfolding of events at the table.I have not asserted that Torchbearer 2e produces a similar play experience to classic D&D. In dungeon play, it favours the rolling of tests over the bare adjudication of the fiction; and in wilderness play it is far more structured than classic D&D, in my view to quite a degree of advantage.What I have asserted is that the use of wandering monster tables to determine precise details is an actual feature of classic D&D.This is no different in Torchbearer 2e. The Camp Events table already "assumes" that certain elements are implicit in the system. As a simple example, if we are playing a TB2e game in which there are no Dire Wolves, then I will need to rework that bit of the Wilderness Camp Events table.And to give a concrete example for classic D&D: what is the total world population of Orcs, or Giant Rats? What is the total dungeon population of these beings? The fiction established in play, and the GM's notes, don't provide an answer. The answer is provided emergently, via Wandering Monster tables and the GM's interpretation of them. For instance, if Orcs come up as encounters, the GM is at liberty - based on their interpretation of the events of play - to decide that these are (say) surviving Orcs from the garrison the PCs have (mostly) cleared out; or alternatively, that these are Orcs from elsewhere coming to find out what has happened to the Orcs that the PCs have cleared out.Now perhaps your "world in motion" play doesn't use encounter tables in this way. But as I said, I am posting about classic D&D.Three things:(1) I've not made any comparison of TB2e to "world in motion" play. I've compared it to classic D&D play.(2) Torchbearer 2e very obviously supports factions with goals, and NPCs acting independently. It has whole relationships and Circles sub-systems to assist with this. as well as the Events tables.(3) The first substantive (ie non-introductory) chapter of the Scholar's Guide advises prospective Torchbearer 2e GM on how to draw up a regional map, with settlements and adventure sites placed on it. Upthread I posted a link to my own map (which is a direct copy of the WoGH map, although with a slight change to some settlements as per the post that I (self)quoted).So your purported contrasts seem to me to have no force.There is not a "predetermined kind of story". Rather, there is a setting: one in which settlements are hostile to dangerous wanderers. Thus, what you say about tone is correct: the setting is the one I just described. But what you say about thematic arc is not correct. There are a range of possible arcs that might unfold in the relationship between adventurers and any given settlement.Three further things:(1) An event on a Town Event table in Torchbearer 2e is not an "abstract narrative beat". It's an event that arises from arriving at a specific place. Here's an example from actual play:(2) As this example shows, it's not true that town always feels like a cold and dehumanising place. Often it does; sometimes it doesn't.(3) I notice that you say "the encounter's actual content depends on the circumstances on the map and the location's established features". I'm sure you regard this as very different from the less-than-total specification of the circumstances prior to the making of a TB2e Camp Event roll; but to me the difference appears to consist mostly in the factors that the GM is expected to have regard to in fleshing out the details.These things are not in contrast. In other threads you've talked about playing a Middle Earth game: JRRT's setting is 100% intended to have a certain tone. That doesn't meant that there is no presentation of a world.I'm certainly willing to accept that tone, and the themes that tone can support, aren't important to you in the way you present the setting to the players. In practice, I would expect that to produce play in which the PCs are largely amoral, and mostly motivated by instrumental concerns.</blockquote>

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