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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5188219" data-attributes="member: 61155">To be fair, I understand what he is saying here. He isn't saying the cmobat takes 25 rounds.  He is saying that over the course of it, monsters take 25 attacks. If every monster only has 2-3 options, and you have 5 of the same monster, you will see the same attacks over and over again.  But it is flawed argument for several reasons.  1) An encounter with 5 copies of the same monster is completely against the encounter design of 4E. It is a badly designed encounter to begin with - of course it will have flaws! 2) If the combat is over in 5 rounds, each monster won't necessarily live that long. Some will be dying out in rounds 3 and 4, and so forth.  3) Not every attack of the same type will resolve the same. Misses, crits, etc. Say we did have an encounter with 5 Orc Raiders. So, let's assume 25 attacks overall. Each has two attacks - melee with a greataxe, ranged with a hand-axe. They also each get one special attack in melee that can heal them. So let's assume we'll see 10 Greataxe attacks, 10 Hand-axe attacks, and 5 Warrior's Surges.  But wait - they are also encouraged to charge (with higher charging speeds), and ranged attacks from up close ignore cover and concealment. So the fight probably starts out much more tactical - the orcs likely make use of cover and concealment that won't help the opponents against their hand-axes, while also trying to draw the party members away from each other. Then, as combat descends into melee and orcs get bloodied, they start fighting like proper orcs with greataxes - and can go charging about, taking advantage of their greater speeds to overwhelm isolated opponents. Those who themselves get surrounded use Warrior's Surge to keep up the good fight! So now, over the course of a battle, we'll see 5 Greataxe attacks, 5 Greataxe charges, 5 Hand-axe attacks, 5 Killer's Eye Handaxe attacks, and 5 Warrior's Surges. And amidst all that, changing conditions as the field moves around, and combat moves into and out of the terrain, and switches back and forth between ranged and melee combat. All of that from a natural set of tactics encouraged and supported by their basic features.  And keep in mind - this is a pretty basic level 3 orc. Most fights will have a broader range of enemies, often with more abilities and more synergy.  Will enemies get reused? Sure, in certain environments. But fights tend to be pretty distinct. And... checking the compendium, there are 62 results for orcs. Ignoring simple variations, named enemies from adventures, etc, I count 23 distinct types of orcs available from the Monster Manual and 2 DDI articles. Assume each fight has 2-3 types of enemies, and that should give you enough to fill an entire orc dungeon with different and distinct fights.  Now, not every creature type will have such variation. But most will have a decent amount, you can get a ton more through customizing monsters and using templates, and how often do you need to populate entire dungeons with a single type of monster? Which brings us to the next point... 4) How does this compare to earlier editions? How much variation was there among melee monsters in 3.5? Isn't a specific criticism the fact that most melee combats descended into "5' step, full round" until someone dropped? Casters were exciting, sure. But you were much more likely to see rooms filled with a half-dozen identical orcs in 3.5. Filling an entire dungeon with them while avoiding repetition? Yeah, good luck with that.  This isn't to say fights were inherently dull and disappointing. But this really is the first time I've heard 4E accused of dull and stale statblocks leading to mindlessly repetitive encounters. It certainly doesn't match my own experience with the game.</blockquote>

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