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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Beginning of the End" data-source="post: 5188686" data-attributes="member: 55271">You can't have it both ways: Either 4th Edition stat blocks feature more options for monsters or they feature fewer options for monsters. Make up your mind.I never said that I did.What we're talking about is the interaction between NPCs and PCs. You, like Noonan, are apparently equating "things happening outside of combat" with "time the PCs aren't interacting with the NPCs".The middle that you're falsely excluding is that many of us run adventures that aren't combat slogs. Stuff happens outside of combat. The actions of NPCs are not limited to 5 rounds of combat and "they're done".It is, as I have said before, precisely this attitude of "five rounds later, they're done" -- an attitude that NPCs don't exist outside of combat -- on the part of the WotC designers that results in modules which don't have anything happening outside of combat.The connection between "I don't think NPCs exist outside of combat" and "I've designed an adventure in which nothing happens outside of combat" is so crystal clear I am baffled that there are people in this thread (or anywhere else) arguing that there isn't a connection.Then why did you describe Noonan's claim that NPCs exist only in combat a being a "truthful statement"?What relevance does that have to what we're talking about?Each round each NPC has to select an action. If there are 5 NPCs using the same stat block and 5 rounds, then 25 actions have to be selected from that stat block.(In reality the number is actually higher because of passive and reactionary abilities.)There might be a couple of abilities out there where two identical creatures have to cooperate to achieve a particular effect (which would be analogous to everyone in the car participating in the same activity), but they're the exception to the rule.What I actually said (echoing what Noonan said): "If we have an encounter with 5 of those monsters at the same time and  each of them survives an average of 5 rounds, then that stat block  actually needs to fill up 25 rounds worth of actions." (emphasis added)Some monsters will last 1 round. Some monsters will last 9 rounds. But if their average lifespan is 5 rounds and there are 5 of them, then they will have 25 actions (assuming 1 action per round).I agree. That is the heart of the debate.And I'm arguing that when you use "is this ability useful in combat?" as your standard for whether or not abilities should be cut, then it's highly suggestive that your focus is on combat. Furthermore, the implications for applying this standard in terms of support for combat encounters vs. non-combat content is clear.And, furthermore, when that question is being asked because your underlying philosophy is that NPCs and PCs don't interact outside of combat, the impact of that philosophy on your adventure design should be obvious.Someone should tell WotC's designers.Let's take Keep on the Shadowfell. There are 14 encounters 5+ copies of the same monster (On the Road, A2, A3, Area 4, Area 5, Area 7, Area 9, Area 10, Interlude 3, Area 12, Area 13, Area 17, Area 18, Area 19); there are 6 encounters with 3-4 copies (A1, A4, Area 2, Area 3, Area 6, Area 14); and only 4 encounters without 3+ duplicate stat blocks (Area 1, Area 8, Area 11, Area 15).That's a 5:1 ratio of 3+ duplicates to non-duplicate encounters.Maybe this has changed? The most recent Dungeon adventure I have access to is Throne of the Stone-Skinned King.5+: 13-4: 4< 3: 5That's at least an even-split, but still seems to be showing duplicate stat block encounters to be fairly common. What about Prince of Undeath? The random encounters are:5+: 43-4: 4< 3: 3The tactical encounters are:5+: 183-4: 4< 3: 8For a whopping total of 30:11. The ratio has shrunk somewhat from KotS, but is still showing a heavy preponderance of the types of encounters you claim shouldn't exist in 4th Edition.Sure. And since there's no difference in the amount of mechanical support for diverse encounters between 3rd Edition and 4th Edition, that particular issue is essentially irrelevant.For example, I've been recently prepping Monte Cook's 3.5 adventure Dark Tidings.1 stat block: 42+ stat blocks: 6But what I'm talking about the tactical flexibility which comes from a single stat block. Encounter build only becomes important in pointing out one of three separate flaws in Noonan's argument, and even then the diversity of encounter build is not important -- only the presence of multiple instances of a single stat block in a single encounter (which has been amply demonstrated above).</blockquote>

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