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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5189167" data-attributes="member: 87792">Oh, so in 3e you custom-craft every single damn monster you use.&nbsp; In 4e you are mysteriously not allowed to custom-craft monsters.&nbsp; Great double-standards there.&nbsp; And in 3e you seem to want to operate above the level where many think it breaks down (see E6 for details).&nbsp;&nbsp;Or you can break 3e monsters into four groups.&nbsp; Physical Combat, Wizard/Sorceror, Cleric/Druid, Specials.&nbsp;Physical Combat monkeys in 3e are mechanically boring.&nbsp; They also make up the overwhelming bulk of monsters in 3e.&nbsp;CoDzillas and Wizards/Sorcerors have hordes of options.&nbsp; The same options as every other CoDzilla or Wizard/Sorceror in the game.&nbsp; And the spellcasting puts their special features in the shade&nbsp;Specials have a number of Sp or Su powers or other tricks - differentiating them from both specialist casters and physical combat monkies.&nbsp; And from each other&nbsp; And they are the rarest category.&nbsp;4e monsters are all either minions or specials.&nbsp; And far more kinetic and kinaesthetic than 3e specials.&nbsp;&nbsp;The thing here is that there are three types of NPC action outside combat.&nbsp; Offstage they don't need stats.&nbsp; In opposed skill checks, there's no reason for them not to simply take 10 every time - it doesn't do much to the maths and does speed up play.&nbsp; And if they are going to take 10 every time, it's as sensible to simply grade their opposition as Easy, Medium, or Hard (using the Skill Challenge table).&nbsp; And if you're running a narrative focus, an individual skill roll of an NPC should almost never be critical.&nbsp;And when you're doing that, you don't need much other than their special and combat powers in the statblock.&nbsp;&nbsp;When an actor leaves the stage does the character continue to exist?&nbsp; There's a good argument that the answer is no.&nbsp;&nbsp;And if the monsters don't select the same action more than once they are almost incoherent.&nbsp;But you seem to assume that the same action twice doesn't have different meanings.&nbsp; Pushing someone one square means something very different when they are (a) on the far side of the room from a pit, (b) two squares away from a pit, or (c) right next to a pit.&nbsp;&nbsp;So flanking is now an exception to the rule?&nbsp; For that matter, so is pushing when there's dangerous terrain?&nbsp;&nbsp;When you know enough about 4e to know what a minion is, get back to us.&nbsp; For that matter, when you know enough about narrative to understand the purpose of a redshirt bad guy get back to us.&nbsp; Until then,&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;You mean other than the kinetic combat, the ease of running (due to the stripped down stat blocks), the assumption you'll be facing multiple foes, etc.?&nbsp;The kinetic combat in 4e on its own makes things far more interesting.&nbsp; In 3e if there's a cliff, it's easy.&nbsp; People don't go near it.&nbsp; In 4e, everyone is trying to push everyone else over as well as trying to defeat them normally.&nbsp; (I exaggerate slightly.&nbsp; But about half of all PCs in my experience have an at will that forces movement.&nbsp; And if there's a cliff, the NPCs are also likely to force movement.&nbsp; It adds entire extra dimensions to the combat.)&nbsp;&nbsp;There is nothing wrong with multiple instances of a single stat block - especially for faceless mooks.&nbsp; It's when there's only one stat block that's the trouble.And you demonstrated that there were repeated minions - did you also demonstrate that all the monsters in a combat used the same stat block?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5189167, member: 87792"] Oh, so in 3e you custom-craft every single damn monster you use. In 4e you are mysteriously not allowed to custom-craft monsters. Great double-standards there. And in 3e you seem to want to operate above the level where many think it breaks down (see E6 for details). Or you can break 3e monsters into four groups. Physical Combat, Wizard/Sorceror, Cleric/Druid, Specials. Physical Combat monkeys in 3e are mechanically boring. They also make up the overwhelming bulk of monsters in 3e. CoDzillas and Wizards/Sorcerors have hordes of options. The same options as every other CoDzilla or Wizard/Sorceror in the game. And the spellcasting puts their special features in the shade Specials have a number of Sp or Su powers or other tricks - differentiating them from both specialist casters and physical combat monkies. And from each other And they are the rarest category. 4e monsters are all either minions or specials. And far more kinetic and kinaesthetic than 3e specials. The thing here is that there are three types of NPC action outside combat. Offstage they don't need stats. In opposed skill checks, there's no reason for them not to simply take 10 every time - it doesn't do much to the maths and does speed up play. And if they are going to take 10 every time, it's as sensible to simply grade their opposition as Easy, Medium, or Hard (using the Skill Challenge table). And if you're running a narrative focus, an individual skill roll of an NPC should almost never be critical. And when you're doing that, you don't [I]need[/I] much other than their special and combat powers in the statblock. When an actor leaves the stage does the character continue to exist? There's a good argument that the answer is no. And if the monsters don't select the same action more than once they are almost incoherent. But you seem to assume that the same action twice doesn't have different meanings. Pushing someone one square means something very different when they are (a) on the far side of the room from a pit, (b) two squares away from a pit, or (c) right next to a pit. So flanking is now an exception to the rule? For that matter, so is pushing when there's dangerous terrain? When you know enough about 4e to know what a minion is, get back to us. For that matter, when you know enough about narrative to understand the purpose of a redshirt bad guy get back to us. Until then, You mean other than the kinetic combat, the ease of running (due to the stripped down stat blocks), the assumption you'll be facing multiple foes, etc.? The kinetic combat in 4e [I]on its own[/I] makes things far more interesting. In 3e if there's a cliff, it's easy. People don't go near it. In 4e, everyone is trying to push everyone else over as well as trying to defeat them normally. (I exaggerate slightly. But about half of all PCs in my experience have an at will that forces movement. And if there's a cliff, the NPCs are also likely to force movement. It adds entire extra dimensions to the combat.) There is nothing wrong with multiple instances of a single stat block - especially for faceless mooks. It's when there's only one stat block that's the trouble. And you demonstrated that there were repeated minions - did you also demonstrate that all the monsters in a combat used the same stat block? [/QUOTE]

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