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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5189741" data-attributes="member: 87792">I must say I'm surprised.I'm going to argue with three of your creatures although it will not change the overall conclusion:The Bearded Devil has spell like abilities (Greater Teleport, Summon) and therefore should be discarded.Blood Drain is a property of one of the Gibbering Mouther's attacks and should not be counted any more than Ongoing 5 is a separate thing in 4e.Animated Object: What has hardness of 10, is like a rope, and like a carpet?  Weird object you have there.Interestingly, cut the devil and drop an ability off the carpet and the mouther and you're down to 3 exactly.  I'm amazed it's a tie.But there's a kicker.  A 3e monster of CR5 is expected to challenge a party of 4 level 5 PCs.  A 4e monster of CR5 is expected to challenge one PC of level 5.  Which means that a CR5 monster in 3e is, in terms of use, much closer to a solo in 4e (and the only out of the book 5th level solos are Dragons and the "Fell Taint Thought Scourge" in one issue of Dragon).  I was wrong to think that the complexity and depth I've noticed in play was from the number of powers.  It's from the thematic and useful monsters in greater numbers.  Thanks for the correction.And you're missing point 3:(3) Balance in monster and encounter design is simply a measure of information for the PC.  If the DM has this information then he can design his world more accurately and clearly than if he did not.  vs Balance in monster and encounter design is a straightjacket.  Without the balance being important there's more practical flexibility.And, as I have mentioned, there's very little monsters should be rolling for out of combat in 4e.  Anything opposed can be handled by one die roll - which the players can make.  Or by 2e style interaction with the DM.In the last two sessions, my PCs have ended two combats in one case by convincing the other side to turn, and in the other by giving them a dressing down then ideas about how to do what they were trying to - but less stupidly.  Both took PC skills.  And there have been about as many non-combat encounters as combat encounters (I think we had four non combat and three combat last session - although the combats took longer).  We had a little more than half hour RP/Skill Challenge to convince one guy to help in the last session (I was the DM) - the guy in question neither had nor needed a single stat even when the PCs were rolling Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Insight, History, and Streetwise.  Possibly also Nature, Perception, or Religion.  And I was running things by the book.NPCs only have freedom of action in the context of encounters.  And the most common form of encounter is combat.But I wish the WoTC writers would read the DMG II and take it to heart.They only need to act in encounters.  And only actually need personal stats in combat.If Noonan meant the way I run 4e, it's perfectly true to say that monsters don't need detailed stats (other than for the odd ritual) to detail how they interact with PCs outside of combat.  You can do it all effectively using the Skill Challenge rules.  On the other hand, he was talking about the 3e MMV I think.  Running 3e without stats for the NPCs outside combat isn't so good.  (Unless he had a prototype Skill Challenge system).</blockquote>

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