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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5190120" data-attributes="member: 2067">Neochameleon, I'm cutting swaths of your response, because I think there's only really one or two points of discussion. Hope that doesn't mischaracterize your position at all. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />You can totally find those things in stat blocks. You don't normally see them there in D&D stat blocks, yes, except maybe in the form of "alignment." However, they are things that have been in the stat blocks of many other games (Forex, I'm playing a <a href="http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/sufficiently-advanced" target="_blank">Sufficiently Advanced</a> game currently that has numerical stats for, amongst other things, how closely you cling to your core character values). Now, I don't disagree with you that stats are essentially away of "keeping score," but follow me down this game design rabbit hole for a minute. Why do stats exist? Why do we have them for anything? You certainly can play and have fun in a game without any stats or dice or anything, leaving stuff up to the DM judgement, or even without a DM (such as in one of those murder mystery party games), just based on information. I could determine how my warrior does in a combat against goblins with simple information: "He is a good swordsman."So why does D&D have stats? Why do RPG's in general have numbers and die rolls? What use are they, if you can have fun, and keep score, without them?Stats, as far as I've found, serve three major purposes. The first is that they are fair and impartial. If your character fails, it helps the trust and fun at the table to be able to "blame the dice," to keep the success or failure independent of DM judgement calls or player persuasiveness. Jenny's PC doesn't get an edge in trying to achieve victory just because Jenny's dating the DM, who, consciously or no, somewhat favors her plans. Derrek's PC didn't die because the DM hates him, he died because he never rolled about an 8. By removing the judgement call to a die roll, you achieve fairness.The second, related reason (really the same reason <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />) is that they don't depend on player skill. This is the old "If I'm a shy person, but I'm playing an outgoing, vivacious bard, why does my personal inability to talk easily mean that I can't be an effective outgoing, vivacious character?" problem. This becomes especially key in fantasy combat. How would Derrek slay a dragon? With stats, the specifics don't matter so much -- he doesn't need to guess the right answer, or puzzle out the DM's intent. He just needs to roll. If the roll succeeds, he does whatever it is that means success (stabs it in the belly or something). The third reason is that they are fun, in and of themselves. Stats are a big part of the reason that D&D is a dork's hobby (pretending to be an elf would be another big part of that). Dorks love stats. Dorks love information, and stats are elegantly presented information. Information that is there to be manipulated, understood, and mastered, in the same way that dorks master math or science or engineering or literature or art or social rules or whatever (cuz everyone's got some dork in them). It's fun to be a gearhead about stats, to break them down, build them up, understand them, and change them, and propogate change through them. People do this about the Yankees every year. Stats are keen. Overly complex stats and overly meaningless stats can be a major hassle, and aren't needed, but a few elegant stats absolutely add to the experience.So, all of this applies for combat. Stats are fun (watching them go up as you level up is fun!). Stats don't depend on player skill (it doesn't matter if you know how to properly penetrate chainmail -- roll a die). Stats are fair and impartial (the DM, and other players, can't even subconsciously hose you over simply by being human and having bias). These things also apply to basically anything that you want to resolve, including exploration, interaction, and reaction. These things don't necessarily involve the drawing of a single dagger, yet they can benefit from being impartial, from being independent of player skill, and from being more fun.Thus, stats for things not involving combat are desirable. That's my logic. I don't think they're necessary, but I don't think any stats are necessary. If you're going for necessity as a prerequisite, you're going to cut out broad swaths of the D&D game. I think they're positive to have. They make the experience better. They add to the game's enjoyment by those at the table.  It's an old-school philosophy, and it can certainly work and be lots of fun, but I think stats make the experience better for more people. Depending on DM judgement and player skill is less fun then rolling a die, doing some math, and seeing the effects.That's why we do it in combat -- it's more fun than just describing what you do. It's something we can do to any resolution.</blockquote>

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