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<blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5191570" data-attributes="member: 61155">I'm certainly glad to hear you never ran into any such issues, but that doesn't mean they weren't there for others. A large part of the design for 4E minions was that this was a regular problem for many groups. I know that in my own games, all the characters worked on making sure their defenses went up as they levelled, such that I had to actively work to optimize lower level enemies, or give up on threatening them with a horde of foes. There were plenty of ways to do so, of course - monsters with naturally good attack bonus, support NPCs with buffs to give out, or monsters with attacks that bypassed defenses entirely. But in some ways, that was its own problem that needed to be fixed - when there was so much disparity in power for monsters of the same exact level (all depending on how well the DM optimized their creation), something is clearly wrong with the CR system. &nbsp;It is certainly true that 4E made it more relevant when it addressed this, and placed more focus on balancing the numbers. That made the need for 4E style minions even more significant. But I don't think one can deny that the problem existed beforehand - it might not have cropped up for everyone, but it certainly was there for many.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="MrMyth, post: 5191570, member: 61155"] I'm certainly glad to hear you never ran into any such issues, but that doesn't mean they weren't there for others. A large part of the design for 4E minions was that this was a regular problem for many groups. I know that in my own games, all the characters worked on making sure their defenses went up as they levelled, such that I had to actively work to optimize lower level enemies, or give up on threatening them with a horde of foes. There were plenty of ways to do so, of course - monsters with naturally good attack bonus, support NPCs with buffs to give out, or monsters with attacks that bypassed defenses entirely. But in some ways, that was its own problem that needed to be fixed - when there was so much disparity in power for monsters of the same exact level (all depending on how well the DM optimized their creation), something is clearly wrong with the CR system. It is certainly true that 4E made it more relevant when it addressed this, and placed more focus on balancing the numbers. That made the need for 4E style minions even more significant. But I don't think one can deny that the problem existed beforehand - it might not have cropped up for everyone, but it certainly was there for many. [/QUOTE]

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