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<blockquote data-quote="Gimby" data-source="post: 5193289" data-attributes="member: 49875">I suppose some of the confusion may be over whether 3e actually had some of the things you are worrying about.&nbsp; It had strong rules/heavy guidelines for advancing existing monsters by HD, a strong procedural method of adding class levels (and a huge library of classes to add) but creating stranger monster abilities was, to my recollection more handwaved.Compare the Medusa with the Ogre Barbarian:<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/medusa.htm" target="_blank">Medusa :: d20srd.org</a><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm" target="_blank">Ogre :: d20srd.org</a>Both apparently CR7, but how do you come up with the poison and petrify effects? I don't recall any strong guidelines on when to introduce these types of properties.&nbsp; Both the 3e and 4e guidelines are good at producing something like the Ogre (a slab of numbers to hit people with) but less guidance is given for the more involved stuff.&nbsp;&nbsp; Chaos beasts (also apparently CR7) would be another good example.As I recall it, the guidance was to compare with other example monsters, essentially what's being suggested for 4e rider effects.&nbsp; Now the differences I see are that 3e gave you feats as a baseline, so something like Awesome Blow, which would be a power rider in 4e was part of the design process while 4e's more codified effects should allow for a stronger point-buy method for riders that the designers just seem to have failed to publish.&nbsp;&nbsp; Is that fair?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Gimby, post: 5193289, member: 49875"] I suppose some of the confusion may be over whether 3e actually had some of the things you are worrying about. It had strong rules/heavy guidelines for advancing existing monsters by HD, a strong procedural method of adding class levels (and a huge library of classes to add) but creating stranger monster abilities was, to my recollection more handwaved. Compare the Medusa with the Ogre Barbarian: [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/medusa.htm]Medusa :: d20srd.org[/url] [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm]Ogre :: d20srd.org[/url] Both apparently CR7, but how do you come up with the poison and petrify effects? I don't recall any strong guidelines on when to introduce these types of properties. Both the 3e and 4e guidelines are good at producing something like the Ogre (a slab of numbers to hit people with) but less guidance is given for the more involved stuff. Chaos beasts (also apparently CR7) would be another good example. As I recall it, the guidance was to compare with other example monsters, essentially what's being suggested for 4e rider effects. Now the differences I see are that 3e gave you feats as a baseline, so something like Awesome Blow, which would be a power rider in 4e was part of the design process while 4e's more codified effects should allow for a stronger point-buy method for riders that the designers just seem to have failed to publish. Is that fair? [/QUOTE]

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