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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5193553" data-attributes="member: 2067">I don't think yer obtuse. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />I like to know that when the PC's are facing challenges, they're using essentially the same mechanics to solve these challenges that creatures that aren't PC's would use to solve these challenges. It helps create a fair baseline and a sense of immersion for me. They also make it easier to improv, since I know what a basic peon can do, what a focused NPC can do, and what a famous world-reknown heroic NPC can do, and can better put the PC's actions in context. It gives the world a reality apart from the party, which is essential to enjoying the game for me, knowing that abilities are not subjective things. I don't necessarily need to make rolls (I can assume 10 in a large portion of them anyway), but I do need to identify what is possible independent of what the PC's can do.I don't see how coming up with an appropriate DC is really any different from rule-zeroing: you're plucking numbers out of the aether whose only real purpose is to provide a fun challenge for the party at the table. I think that's fine, and useful, and great, but I'd also like some numbers to show me how the world is like when the PC's aren't around, so I can figure out what role the party serves in the world. I don't think that necessarily takes the detailed method of NPC creation that 3e has to achieve, but I really do think it takes more than any tool 4e uses at the moment. Which means there's room for improvement for 4e, at least. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 5193553, member: 2067"] I don't think yer obtuse. ;) I like to know that when the PC's are facing challenges, they're using essentially the same mechanics to solve these challenges that creatures that aren't PC's would use to solve these challenges. It helps create a fair baseline and a sense of immersion for me. They also make it easier to improv, since I know what a basic peon can do, what a focused NPC can do, and what a famous world-reknown heroic NPC can do, and can better put the PC's actions in context. It gives the world a reality apart from the party, which is essential to enjoying the game for me, knowing that abilities are not subjective things. I don't necessarily need to make rolls (I can assume 10 in a large portion of them anyway), but I do need to identify what is possible independent of what the PC's can do. I don't see how coming up with an appropriate DC is really any different from rule-zeroing: you're plucking numbers out of the aether whose only real purpose is to provide a fun challenge for the party at the table. I think that's fine, and useful, and great, but I'd also like some numbers to show me how the world is like when the PC's aren't around, so I can figure out what role the party serves in the world. I don't think that necessarily takes the detailed method of NPC creation that 3e has to achieve, but I really do think it takes more than any tool 4e uses at the moment. Which means there's room for improvement for 4e, at least. ;) [/QUOTE]

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